Or did you need some time before you could come to that decision?

I think it was just needed some time to kind of process what happened and to kind of think, yeah, do we want to try again and see what happens? And I think sort of later on in that kind of year we just sort of saw that decision and kind of sort of went with it and I did become pregnant in this so that that happened in the May and then in the sort of November December time I became pregnant for the second time so it was yeah kind of that how I suppose it did happen quite quickly actually um in terms of that kind of process um but then the second time that was a bit more of a traumatic process because I had to go into hospital and have some procedures and things.

And a big part of that, I remember kind of my mum coming down to the hospital and my husband was there and my sister was there.

And they were both, all three of them were very much like, what's going to happen to you if you have to have a procedure and all of those kind of things.

So it then became, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, came less about the baby and more about me and that worry of kind of actually could we lose Lisa in this process obviously we didn't and that we you know we're very grateful for that we did lose the baby but it was a different sort of process that happened Were they long that time? Yes, I was about 10 weeks that time and they didn't know whether it was an ectopic pregnancy or not and they couldn't quite work out what was going on and so because of that there was some uncertainty so they decided to do a procedure to kind of deal with it as opposed to let my body naturally deal with it.

Prior to

that.

And then we were both, you know, good jobs, good careers, good lifestyle.

So what made you, apart from that Google exercise, what made you think I need to be a little bit more, putting myself out a little bit more?

So I think some of it for me was, I describe it as, I feel like my light was being dimmed, perhaps by comments, things that other people were saying, and I was allowing that in.

And I think I made the decision.

I don't think I know I made the decision, Sandra, to say, actually, why do I need to dim my light anymore? Why do I even think that other people's feedback is perhaps important? And I made a really sort of strong decision for myself to say, actually, I want to put myself out there.

I want to be more visible.

I want to do podcasts.

I want to be on stages.

But you seem more confident in your own space and what you're doing and where you're going as well, your goals for the future.

And I think after Nick, just because somebody has a title sometimes, you know, and this is kind of goes back to our conversation about around sort of almost the bad leader, for want of a better word, where it is, you know, purely because they've got that job title, you know, and, you know, it sort of then feeds on to, you know, around maybe a question for you about, you know, why do, you know, why do you think employees disengage from managers? You know, do you feel like, you know, obviously you sort of alluded to already because of that, assumption because you've got that title? Do you think there's something else that kind of could lead people to disengage?

Yeah, I think it's a combination of both, actually.

So I think it's about when, what I'm really clear about when I talk to teams and organisations is people have to know where they're going.

And as leaders, we have to have set that out.

So what's the purpose of why we're here doing the jobs that we're doing? And overall, as an organisation, what are we here to produce or do? So it's that people knowing the direction of travel.

And more often than not, when people don't know where they're heading, that strategic direction, and then how we're going to get there, people disengage from that because they're lost.

And it's a really natural thing that happens.

And actually, that, you know, it is then about how can we kind of encourage and I think, you know, what would be your thoughts about, you know, how can you know, if there's people listening today that are saying, you know, I'm a leader, and how can I kind of create that genuine connection with someone without still losing that authority or accountability for things? What would be your advice to them?