Leo Zeff

And I got it partway through, and then he mentioned another book called The Secret Chief, which for everybody who's here, if you have not read it, it's really good stuff.

The Secret Chief is Leo Zeff's interview where he talks about how he went underground as a therapist and was working with clients with psychedelics and process- processed 3,000, you know, uh, clients, and what he had learned and what his process was like.

And I was like, "I'm gonna reverse engineer this.

I'm gonna do this in my own house because it's COVID." The people who I'd met who were guides, it didn't feel like a good fit.

Yeah, I think that has been very common.

Like even Leo Zeff was... called the Secret Chief.

He was like a psychotherapist in the 60s.

And when psychedelics became illegal, he kind of went underground, did this very interesting psychotherapy practice with people in groups and different medicines.