L. David Mech

Mm.

And it was by, um, a scientist called David Mech, and he did the original studies on wolves, um, in captivity.

And then interestingly, in the late '90s, he then did more research on wolves in the wild once they were able to actually study them, and, um, discovered that they don't have hierarchies, and that's where the information about dogs came from, was on wolves, and the information from cats was extrapolated from, from dogs.

So it's been going for a long, long time, and if you go to pet shops and things like that, you will notice they'll have like bowls saying, "Top cat" and-

Another thing that I think we have done, too, we have thrown the baby out with the bath, with the bathwater.

So when we look at the research into wolves, and it was David Mech that initial research where you had all the fighting for the top spot in the, in the hierarchy and whatnot, and then they discovered that, well, that was actually not how wolves' pack was.

Yeah, yeah.

But so then we kinda started to shove that research away and go, "Ah, we, we have to disregard that because it doesn't count," and because in a wolf pack it's all family.