And then it's

– That's what they're doing.

So they're actually targeting your brain, not your bank account.

So a scam starts not from you going to your bank, handing money over, A scam starts the moment someone says hi.

The moment a scammer says hi is when the scam starts.

And this is what we've got to sort of understand is that we talk about the other stages where we hand over the cash, right? That's down the track.

The first moment that they go, hi, how are you? I saw your profile on Facebook.

brain.

Mm.

And she said that someone would then, that someone was going to love me for me.

And that's how this process went down.

And it's interesting, we t- talked about last week, I, you know, we said that, uh, Jane had lost, you know, some money and, and through her super.

This lady hasn't lost a lot.

Like, she only lost a couple of thousand dollars.

But for her, that was a lot of money.

Mm

Kylie, when someone gets the call that says there's suspicious activity, what's the first thing they should do before engaging with that person?

Look, I always say we have to take control of that call.

So, I mean, I'm quite happy to say to everyone, just hang up on that phone call straight away and do your own due diligence.

But I know people aren't going to do that.

So, let's just do, if you're not prepared to, you know, hang up straight away, so let's look at maybe asking them some institutional questions, if we want to say.

Something like, what is the full name as it appears on my account? Because...

A scammer's not going to know that.

Stand up, say something because then the damage can be limited.

Kylie, can you share a case that really highlights how these scams work for us?

Ab- yes, absolutely.

So I'm going to talk, and I'm just gonna call her Jane Doe because that's the victim.

I, I don't want to call, you know, her real name.

So Jane is a, a, a lady in her mid-70s, and she lives by herself, and her daughter reached out to me, and what, what's happened is Jane is on LinkedIn, and she, um, linked up with a professional, a, a doctor.

And there was... and he was attached, and I'm doing it in inverted commas here.

He was attached to, uh, a hospital in the USA.

Mm.

I

always ring them just to confirm that that information they've sent me is correct.

Is that, you know, bank account details correct? Is, you know, is the BSB correct? Is this, you know, everything has to be correct.

So you want to sort of pick those.

Again, it only takes a couple of minutes.

Take those little bits off.

Don't take that everything for face value.

Can you just go through those, what they are and how they help with the verification process?

Yeah.

Look, that's a really interesting point.

I think what's happening there is the scammers are ensuring that they're keeping themselves online.

The scammers are giving them a reason why to stay online, why to talk for hours on end.

And that comes down to that manipulation and coercion.

They drag you into the vortex of their world.

They're very good at what they do.

All right, Collie, look, as this all becomes part of everyday life, as AI moves into more and more sorts of things, what sort of questions should people start asking before they trust what they're seeing, hearing or being told online, whether it's dating, whether it's buying products, whatever it is? Can you just give me a little wrap up of how we can tackle this with AI in the picture?

when you do look at these scam cases, and I know that that's where you live, that's, uh, that's it, right in the middle of the scam cases, and we love you for it, how central is emotion to the way these scams actually work?

Look, I- uh, emotion takes the number one, I suppose that's three on top.

That's the start of that- that scam.

You know? They- they're high- We- we've talked about this before.

They're highly skilled at manipulating emotions.

And they, what they do, scammers will bypass rational thought to exploit our, you know, psychological vulnerabilities.

And, you know, and- and vulnerability is not a weakness, and I think I've said this before, and I- Brene Brown talks about it.

Okay

Mm

... um, yeah, nothing's ever urgent.

So I, I sort of was listening to victims talk, and it was this sense of urgency all the time, whether it be the Hi Mum scam or, or, you know, a, a crypto scam or something, and it was always urgent.

So I said, "Well, is it urgent?" Well, it's not.

So how can I frame something that people can think of? You know, PCA.

All right, what can be something simple? All right, I remember Kylie said, "I've just gotta pause." So that's how that sort of started, was just saying, "You know, just calm the farm a bit.

You know?"

Ask, what are we doing with asking?

Kylie, what on earth is going on with these silent calls?

I know.

And look, it's funny.

I would say I'm getting them daily, at least once a day, at this silent call.

And we know, you know, it rings.

And, of course, what do we do? We always say hello as we do.

And then it's cricket.

I need to talk to you.

How did you fall for that? I mean, just take us inside what someone is feeling and doing during these moments of meeting someone.

So it's a really... people aren't stupid, and I think we've got to change that language from that, because that's certainly, that is what is always said.

So what happens is that someone goes online, and because they go online for many reasons, they could be a victim of domestic violence, they want to find someone, they could be a widow, could be whatever reason, but they go online and they find somebody.

So when a scammer then taps into that world or that person.

They then start using just some basic manipulation, some just basic conversation techniques.

You know, how's your day? You know, and they start to engage.

So a person who, and everyone's got to realise, someone who goes onto a dating app isn't going onto a dating app believing they're going to meet a scammer.

What advice do you have for people who are trying to help someone that they feel is getting scammed?

Kylie, can you share a case that really highlights how these scams work for us?

Ab- yes, absolutely.

So I'm going to talk, and I'm just gonna call her Jane Doe because that's the victim.

I, I don't want to call, you know, her real name.

So Jane is a, a, a lady in her mid-70s, and she lives by herself, and her daughter reached out to me, and what, what's happened is Jane is on LinkedIn, and she, um, linked up with a professional, a, a doctor.

And there was... and he was attached, and I'm doing inverted commas here.

He was attached to, uh, a hospital in the USA.

Mm.

All right, let's move on to your second one of your big fives.

My second one is moving the conversation off the dating app.

Now, most scammers will rush you to move you onto that WhatsApp or Telegram or Zangief because they can't be traced or it's encrypted.

So moving off the platform hides the criminal, hides who that person is.

And the dating sites or if you're talking to them on Facebook or Instagram, we can't shut those accounts down.

We can't block those accounts.

We can't report those accounts.

Let's go on to number three, your third one there.

And then

it's – That's what they're doing.

So they're actually targeting your brain, not your bank account.

So a scam starts not from you going to your bank, handing money over, A scam starts the moment someone says hi.

The moment a scammer says hi is when the scam starts.

And this is what we've got to sort of understand is that we talk about the other stages where we hand over the cash, right? That's down the track.

The first moment that they go, hi, how are you? I saw your profile on Facebook.

So I'm thinking what do things like stress and that distraction and fatigue or even emotional overwhelm, how do they affect our ability to spot red flags?

Oh.

So let's break it down to what they do.

So it's organized crime.

It is...

So someone will apply for what they believe to be a legitimate job.

They will then fly to, say, Bangkok, for example.

They'll be picked up, their passports will be taken off them.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And he was, and he was so, he was so real.

He was so, he was so, uh, and I, and I hate the word vulnerable, but he, he was so, he was so honest with the way he felt to me.

And I went, "Mate, you, you, you're gonna be okay.

You, you, you will be fine.

You just gotta work through it, you know? Please understand." And then I explained to him about, you know, the organized crime part of all, so you understand this is just not Joe sitting in a cafe.

Yeah

... and they are held under armed guard that is run by Chinese organized crime, or organized crime, and in each level within those compounds will be for something, whether it be an investment, business email compromise, romance scam.

Just give us a sense of what we're talking about if someone says a, a romance scam.

Well, I sort of deal with that digital romance scam, the one that you go online, dating profile, fake profile.

You engage with that profile believing it is who they represent themselves to be on a dating app, and then they take you off the dating app and take you into this dark world of conversations, and then you start engaging with them, and then send money, and your world is just destroyed, in a very, very basic way.

Yeah.

So realistically, we don't actually know the financial extent, you know, a- and also the emotional extent, but the financial extent as to what's going on.

So we know that it's, you know, transnational organized crime.

We know that the money is being utilized towards the drug trade, you know, weapons, whatever.

But we don't actually know the actual extent of monies-