Why shouldn't these opportunities go to American students? Are international graduate students filling places Americans could otherwise fill, or is part of the problem that the United States simply does not produce enough domestic graduate students in some of these scientific and technical fields?

This is absolutely a supply and demand issue.

If you look at the numbers, for example, China produces about 1.5 million engineering bachelor's degrees a year.

India produces somewhere close to a million The United States produces less than 200,000 a year.

And on top of that, not all of them choose to go for a doctorate or a master's degree even, the reason being that they can all immediately get good paying jobs.

And the premium associated with their doctoral degree is not that great economically.

And so it's really people who have a passion for and the ability to perform research, so both aptitude and interest, and are willing to take the financial sacrifice that go into doctoral degrees.

If you would explain this seed corn analogy, what happens 10 or 15 years from now if substantially fewer of those students choose the United States today?

How would you respond to that particular e- e- explanation of what current policies are doing?

I, I can address accountability at multiple levels.

You know, one is if you get, talk about fiscal accountability, start there.

It's simply, you know, uh, especially for public universities, absolutely everything is open records.

And so the argument somehow that we're not transparent, that we don't, um, or we're not accountable is not true.

Whether, whether it's auditing or legislatures or whoever is really looking at what's going on at universities in terms of fiscal, fiscal expenditures, not to mention, uh, investigative journalists and, you know, what have you.

I think when they say they're not accountable, what they are generally say- trying to say is that we don't understand university finances.

And so I wonder, you know, how you think about doing that kind of work, especially across the country in states where the leaders of those states really do support a lot of this agenda, and that the universities in those states have to walk a really careful line because they're publicly funded from those states.