You know, how do you actually help them enjoy those activities? Yeah.

So again, similar to some of the other answers, I think that one key would be persistence.

I think that they won't do it if you do it once and you go, oh, no, that didn't work.

So we're not going to do that again.

I think you need to keep on going and you need to set the expectation that everyone will be singing.

And that is just something that we do.

That's something that we do at church.

I

So could you talk us through, like, what's a hard season you've walked through and kind of how you've seen God's faithfulness to you in that?

Yep.

Well, so I've been doing my PhD for a number of years, for whatever, two and a half years, and in my particular case, project, what I had to go and do was ask or find some people who I could interview, just 15 people, it wasn't very many.

But what I had to do to do that was I had to email a principal, the principal of lots of schools, and ask them if they could pass on this stuff to their teachers.

And so it was big, this big chain that it had to... that you had to go through before you could get these people who would be in your interview.

Anyway, I had probably six months when no one said yes.

And so I was just like, oh, this is a really long time.

this is a reasonable amount of time and you're past it now.