Joshua, has there been any community around what you've been doing in your own approach to, in your psychedelic exercise, where you get a personality unblended and put them through the firmness of mind?

I wrote this book that touches on psychology and psychedelics.

My aim wasn't so much to create a community, but I do have uh in chapter seven i have a like a profile of the santa diamond religion and you know that is still going on i still attended and i i think it is a um like a positive force in the world um that i did wanted to like you're asking about self-experimentation before we lose that thread i just wanted to mention that uh Mike J. wrote a really good book on this.

The title is Psychonauts.

And he has a history of self-experimentation with mind-altering substances that might be of interest to listeners.

And the other thought that came up for me listening to Neil and Brandon discuss this is you all seem to be making a um like a distinction between psychedelics and other mind-altering drugs or psychoactive drugs and um to me it's like a not as clear what that dividing line is i mean there's you know we have coffee and alcohol which are you know definitely psychoactive and um so i you know i'm i'm not like if we include those then like the whole premise of the question seems to...

I was ready to understand or experience psychedelics in a different way by the time I was that age.

Right.

Um, but yeah, I'd love for you to share about your, your own experience and, um, kind of, because that's, it's a really different world than growing and consuming your own mushrooms.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

So, uh, the Santo Daime is one of, uh, maybe two, um, like international psychedelic religions the other one would be the udv i'm not aware of any others that are have reached that scale um and uh the santa daime started about 100 years ago in brazil um uh in in the last uh say 50 years they've uh branched branched out and to become international they they have um ceremonies that take place in in many countries now in europe across europe and um The Ashland Church is special because that's the church that won the legal case against the U.S. government to free the daimyo.

Right.

One possibility is that empathy functions as a belief-enabled ability.

Right.

So I think there's two possible accounts for empathy.

Either it could be due to this belief in the golden rule, like to do unto others as you would like others to do unto you.

So it could be a belief in the golden rule, or it could be something more like mystical or spiritual, where you have the conviction that, you know, all life forms are part of some greater life form so that, you know, and by virtue of that, it is logical to have empathy for life forms.

I think that's the other account.

And then And maybe the golden rule is like an interpretation of that experience.

don't

They don't have to be highfalutin things.

Yeah, yeah.

No, that's, you know, I agree that that sense of direction and meaning or meaning and direction would be self qualities as well.

So I like how you're defining self qualities.

I like your examples.

But to bring you back to the sexual practices.

So my sense is the tantra and the what is it, the Taoist practices, they don't, they're not constrained in the Varela Schwartz model.

You're learning how to use that other brain in your stomach.

But where I wanted to take it, and you, you've, uh, you've really kind of opened the door there, uh, should we consider these, uh, expressions revelatory? Are they, uh, do they produce a revelation or a series of revelations?

Um, I mean, I, I think, uh, um, the answer is yes, based on, um...

Like there, there's actually empirical studies, um, that have been done, like, decades ago, looking at using, uh, psychedelics to catalyze scientific insight, and that's what, uh, Bruce Dammer is doing with his Mind Institute, um, just in the, in the, uh, very recently in the last, you know, couple years.

He, uh, Bruce Dammer is a, uh, astrobiologist.

He's one of the scientists who, um, has one of the leading proposals for how life got started on earth, and, um, he's a big advocate of using psychedelics as a way of catalyzing scientific insight.

So, um, like I don't, I wouldn't even say it's, like, my opinion, but it's, I think it's close to established fact that these substances can, um, w- what word were you using? Uh, can, uh, hmm, catalyze visions or insights or re- or revelation.

You said revelation?

Is it not?

Private inner experience through observable behavior.

Yeah.

And so that's where the Francis Vrella part of the method comes in.

And I mean, you can see how it works in firmness.

Like it's actually very simple.

If you succumb to a private reverie, then that first-person inner experience becomes apparent to everyone else in the room because you're no longer able to follow the lyrics and sing because you're distracted.

What are you really saying?

Well, okay, so what I'm saying is the first person inner experience of becoming, or I guess second person inner experience, like whether you're blended with your part or not, that's usually something that can't be observed, right? Like if I'm, If you're blended with a part or not blended with a part, like, how would I know that observing

He's knocking at the door.

Okay, so the probationer is basically self-reporting.

That's what you do when you're reciting something that's memorized is you're self-reporting.

So that's first-person outward stance.

And the evaluator is in a second-person outward stance, maybe in consultation with, yeah, the book that they're reading.

So there may be some... um inner part which is uh you know good at reading which is so they're um uh reconciling the uh what's being read against what they're hearing from their probation

But you're saying, you said in therapy, the way you laughed, it seemed that plenty of them come at you, I've got to tell you.

Oh, oh, um, yeah, I mean, uh, it happens sometimes, um, that people want to share their, uh, psychedelic journeys.

Right

... um, you're able to, um, to let that part know you heard it, but, uh, ask it to step back while you do the business presentation.

And then you, um, as soon as you have, um, time to be with that part, then you return to it and, and, uh, and address its concerns, like, um, make some calls, find out what happens, and, and so forth.

So that, that sounds like a, um, very, like, a mature, um, like a, a rigid control over, over your emotions and, um, but, but, um, I'm not sure about the word rigid.

More like, to me, it's more like trusting.

Like, that part really trusts you to, uh, to take care of its needs, the one that, um, is holding those family relationships.

Um, so we have the schizophrenic ordeal, um, and I don't remember why we got there.

[laughs] Okay.

It's something.

Okay, well, m- maybe, uh, let me just, um, s- make a claim and then tell me, you can tell me why it doesn't hold up.

Um, so, so suppose, uh, um, m- my claim is that, uh, that the Santo Daime, uh, when you attend a Santo Daime ceremony, um, you know, given...

Let's suppose you're, um, using the same dose of the tea, uh, that you always use.

Like, so if that's held constant, then, uh, it's, uh, these ceremonies measure your, uh, vulnerability or pro- or, uh, proclivity to, to blending.

Uh, but other than that-

Okay, see, you...

I see.

And I was angry or I could say I am angry.

Okay.

So what I'm hearing is like you were blended with a frustrated or angry part.

And then you had also expressed anger.

like your expectations for how something should be done, how the dog should be managed.

And she had also, so that would be like a first person, outward first person expression, like self-reporting, how you feel the dog should be managed.

And she also uh expressed her opinion so that would also be from her her point of view like uh she was uh self-reporting about how what her expectations were um and then i i guess both of you were um uh like had a we're also in the stance of like uh second person outward second person where you um try to understand and clarify you know what another person is saying so hopefully both of you are also listening

So let's talk about firmness.

You know, this week we're gonna, and we're gonna talk about this in relation to that, and here's your exercise, and write it in your diary.

Okay, but I think, I think this is a place where our, we have like different visions for our approach.

Like you see, like inner dialogue work is like the most you can offer.

And like in my mind, it's really important to get beyond like this kind of like a conceptual just having a mere conceptual understanding of our internal landscape.

It needs

Yeah, how do I get

started? Sure, they're like a unique person, but they may benefit from your guidance, from your experience with inner exploration.

That all makes sense.

I'm so afraid of going to hell.

So that this, um, I think this connects to the idea of like relativism, like that, uh, if we don't have any North star or any, um, Hmm.

any moral beliefs that we can accept absolutely, then you get stuck in this relativism where any belief is as good as any other belief.

Is that what you're getting at?

And we find those beliefs in the major religions extant.

Yeah, yeah.

So, and I guess my response to that is that you can identify moral principles that are axiomatic.

For example, maybe if you decide that it's never justified to kill someone or to kill yourself, then that can help orient your other moral beliefs or your other beliefs.

That are so matter of fact that they're unnoticeable.

Yeah, yeah.

And so we don't even think to question the assumptions, but like this tends to allow us to become identified with certain ideas.

A good example, particularly relevant to what's happening today with artificial intelligence is suddenly these chatbots, these AI chatbots are exhibiting a remarkable degree of intelligence and that's calling into question whether we should identify ourselves as like i'm smart or i'm stupid as opposed to you know i have a part of myself that's intelligent like it's it uh it helps us recognize intelligence as separate from who we are and that Like intelligence is still important and valuable, but it doesn't define...

So is intelligence

And my note to that was inhabiting the different roles in our lives while remaining unblended.

Yeah, so...

so the idea is that, uh, um, like this aspiration to, to know thyself, to recognize who one is, like to what we need to do to realize that aspiration of knowing oneself is to unblend from all these identities that we're blended with.

What is the difference between blended and unblended parts on the inner and outer?

Okay, so I think the difference is most apparent on the outside, like that other people can notice the difference is that when you're blended with your part, then your behavior, like it controls your behavior.

So suppose you're angry with a person and you get you're blended with your anger, then you're likely to express that anger in whatever ways that the angry part sees fit.

Shoot your wife.

Well, yeah, I mean, if you happen to have the misfortune of having a gun in the house, yes.

Oops, Freudian slip.

Okay, but if you're unblended, then you can be with that anger, like the vividness, how viscerally you feel that anger may not change.

In these two extremes, there's everything in between.

What do you mean by

that? Well, just that you, like for theories of conscious, like if you're gonna organize conscious experience, like it's important to include, the self-report aspect of it.

Because your experience of being in that state is an important component of important information that we need to map consciousness.

Maybe let me talk about psychological relevance as the other criteria.

I think that would clarify it.

So I was getting too abstract.

So distinctions between altered states, like if you have two altered states that are different, they should have different psychological implications for you.

yes you know because i think i am not because i'm thinking in my body so we have a distinction between the two which has set up all sorts of philosophical conundrums over the years and i have my own solution to that and um and i agree with certain scientists in that regard

What are spirit guides?

Um, well, so, uh, so, okay.

So the, um, uh, chapter four was about the spirit world, and, um, possessions, and, um, j- usually possessions are, uh, are, are the, um...

So, like, people have different, uh, relationships with...

I- if you feel like you're possessed by a spirit, it may be, uh, a good thing or a bad thing.

Like, if it's, uh, um, trying to harm you, then we'd say it's a bad thing and you should [laughs] get, get rid of it.

Um, but what if it's a good thing? What if it's, um, giving you, uh, insights or, or good advice, or, um, helping, helping you with your life? So that, that's what I mean by spirit guides, and I don't know, um, I'm not sure if I have personal experience with that or not.

Yeah.

Well, I'm not so sure what you're saying there because was it you that presented the psychedelic experiment at Boston University or did I take that from somewhere else?

No, no, I do discuss that.

I know exactly what section you're talking about.

So the experiment at Boston University is basically a way of showing the transformative power of psychedelics.

So what happened is...

there were like 25 years ago, there were a bunch of divinity students and, um, it was, uh, well, they tried to do a blinded experiment where they, they give, um, half the volunteers psilocybin, half of them niacin.

Um, like it, it wasn't a very good blinding, but anyway, uh, um, the results were like, uh, that, uh, the divinity students who received psilocybin, um, you know, had life-changing experiences.

You know, how do we begin to see the difference between the earnest and the corrupt communities? Do the earnest communities become corrupted?

What inspired such a significant life transformation?

Sure.

So when I was a teenager growing up in California, that was a time when personal computers were just becoming available.

And so I got an Apple II computer.

I guess I got access to one.

I maybe a friend's computer at first.

And I was fascinated.

From a therapist perspective, what psychological question should we be asking?

Joshua, can you tell us a little bit about your sorcerer story and how it all started?

Okay, so when I was a teenager, that was like the beginning of like when personal computers started to become available and I got fascinated by computers.

And it was also a time when I was interested in exploring inner experience and I encountered one of some of Jung's books, which I didn't understand, but certainly aroused my curiosity about exploring inwardly and got me interested.

interested in the Eastern religions and Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism.

So while I was exploring religion as a hobby, I developed my career with computers and developed expertise in computer programming.

Eventually, I went to college at Carnegie Mellon University and then worked in the New York area for some years, but I didn't feel like the software development was very rewarding personally.

And so that's why I ventured to finish my bachelor's degree in psychology and then get a PhD in quantitative psychology.

Do you think humans have moral or religious responsibility towards AI?

What are your thoughts on this fear, or is it silly to even think that?

Okay, so you're suggesting that AIs could eventually become self-interested, independent agents.

Right.

Is that the concern? Mm-hmm.

Okay, and so...

So to be a self-interested agent, you'd have to be conscious.

Is that right? I mean, there would be consciousness associated with...

I mean, where and how do your own spiritual beliefs fit into your work? Are you able to separate yourself from those beliefs so that you can be objective?