What does that brand that we're putting forward do to make people think they need to show up, clean up before they can come to church, be involved in the faith of Jesus?

Yeah, 100%.

To your point about Victorian ghosts and any sort of cultural reality that we find ourselves in where, where people will always find themselves in trouble, is when they think that they don't see through a glass darkly, that they have a worldview that is just quote unquote biblical, and that all of the views that they hold and their understanding of who God is, who they are, who, what the world is, if they think that they just have that passed down.

And that's, I think, something that's like, you know, as Protestants, we've, we tried to remove ourselves from a lot of the things that unfolded over centuries that were putting more and more distance between direct communion with God.

Ironically, that kind of created this false sense of security that we are actually the most direct, that we are the most, you know, we just read our Bible and that's it.

And it's like, no, you're actually surrounded by influences and understandings and things that you're not even aware of.

We have to bring this to art, to our worship, and to the point of church.

Yeah

Take us into Birthright.

Yeah, so Birthright kind of actually covers three generations.

We start with Isaac, and then we shift in verse two to Jacob, and then we go finally to Joseph, and we end at Joseph.

And I find a lot of hope in the notion of how not cleanly the narrative of God's redemption arc is sometimes because it'd be very easy to tie a pretty bow on the end of like God answering the promise to Abram and going, Hey, here's your son.

Here's what I promised you outside of what seemed possible in this literal miracle.

Well, here's the miracle living in the implications of what it means to be that.

And he's going, I'm not even sure I know how to, and like, what does this mean for me? And then him having his own son and his own son being literally a cheater from birth.

And when people are doing the Bible in your reading plan, the part that they're like, I can't keep going.

He's

explicit Then that must mean that whatever is good, beautiful and true isn't just about not saying words that can in certain contexts offend.

It has to be deeper than that.

And so I think sometimes that there's been a fear that artists might say something in a way that offends our sensibilities.

But I believe you can offend the sensibilities without betraying reverence or hope.

from the lord um and when we don't create that space for that to happen um then the artists go okay well i can't do this here i'll do it somewhere else and my the hard thing i've been doing is to say no i'm going to do this firmly within the context of the church um whether that's in like an actual uh like on staff context or just being a part of the body but i think that that fear and trepidation around it has to be held a little bit more loosely um And I think we have to accept that beauty doesn't always look shiny or pretty.

And I think we just have to, again, to the utilitarian question, we have to create spaces that are beyond just how is this applicable on a Sunday morning.

Do you see tapestry functioning that way?