Um,

yeah, I mean, it was just, it was rather natural, sort of a natural progression.

I was a musician for a number of years, and as I was doing that, you know, the music that I was making was the product, and I still have a clear recollection.

I released, like, my first punk rock album.

I was 16 years old, 1998 or 99. and uh my dad said okay that's great you've made the album now how how do people know about it and i thought oh that's an that's interesting question that's kind of the question so i became with became obsessed with how do you get people to know about something when you've released it because i come from this this place of music and it meant a lot to me and so if it meant a lot to me and i wanted people to hear it i had to figure out how to get people to to hear it and So my life kind of became about that.

How do you get people to know about the things that you're creating? And I'd released 10 albums, and music was my life, and I kind of was done traveling.

And my wife was a food writer, and so as she was writing about restaurants and we were going to all these restaurants, I just sort of brought this desire to help people that my wife was writing about and that she was consulting for to say, all right, how do we get people to know about you more? I mean, just basic marketing principles.

What made you make the jump there?

What makes

it...

A passion of yours.

Well, shout out to our neighbor, Tom Waits, for writing the liner notes for People Take Warning.

Yeah.

Thanks a lot, Tom, our neighbor.

You know, a lot of it is collaboration.

So restoration for this project, for the 1925 Songs Project, what did that involve?

Mm-hmm.

And I think the primary reason for that is, is the-- what I-- what drew us as participants of this sport in the first place.

It's a, it's a culture built on gratitude.So I think what is slowing our progression is that when we get this, how many people say-- how many people stick up for Mountain Outpost and say, "Hey, this is hard.

They're out in the wilderness.

Uh, you know, we should just be grateful that it exists." But I guarantee you, when PSG played Arsenal, uh, last week, no one would say, "I'm just thankful that there are people out there trying to get that game on TV." Can you imagine that? I mean, Paris won and they lit it on fire.

Where I'm sitting right now, there were riot police running right in front of my window.

So I, I'm not saying that we should be jerks by any stretch, but it's, it's, we-- it's that our sport has two different things happening on the same track at the same time, the same course, and one is built on participation and love, and one of them is built on, sure, love, participation, and a cutthroat desire to win, and we build our media as if it's for the participation version of the sport.

... to build something, if I'm-- if that's fair to assess, that brings all of this information together without the need of, you know, million dollars, uh, of capital investment.