So as a firm, when y'all go, when you're consulting with somebody, what does that look like to help them through this process? And are you catching them on the front end, or do you see this, uh-

Well, a lot of the new firms that we're talking to are calling because they wanna create an MSO.

They want access to private equity.

I think there's kind of a race because there is a fear out there that the ABA may say, "Hey, you know, we don't like what's going on." I'm not sure how valid that is, but I've heard that expressed.

I think it comes down to what's the reason that you wanna get bigger and acquire firms, or what's the reason that you want to create this MSO? Is it to create a path? You know, really you wanna build a firm that you don't have to work in, but you just work on.

If you're comfortable with that, you can just get better and ride it out.

But if you really wanna monetize what you've built, private equity's the way to go.

Okay.

What were some of your expectations going into this? mergers and acquisitions? And how was the reality of a merger and acquisition different from what you expected it was going to be at first time you went into it?

Well, I think it's important if you're trying to find a target to merge with that you come up before you even look at targets, come up with what your criteria are.

What are the things that are non-starters that if they don't check those boxes, you're not going to pursue it any further.

And so once you have that framework of what you're looking for, then you can go out and come up with a population of people that might fit that framework.

Not everybody wants to sell or merge.

And so in our own experience, we did that exercise and we came up with a few.

One was fortuitous because it was a firm that was really good, had a great reputation, had great clients and people.

Why is succession planning so important? And when should business owners or senior leadership start working on a succession plan?

For folks who may not know you and be familiar with you, I'd love it if you could dive in and tell us a little bit about your journey as an entrepreneur and how you got here.

Well, sure.

I joined Anders in 1992.

I was a baby accountant and I had had some previous accounting experience at a smaller firm while I was going to college.

But Anders was a good sized firm and it got most of its referrals from attorneys.

And so we really worked closely with law firms and attorneys.

And we were a smaller local firm at that time, maybe 50 people.

So, John, one thing that I find super interesting from our conversation before as well is that you all have had an opportunity to work with private equity and didn't necessarily go that direction.