I picked this because, not just because John and I sort of have an ongoing ontological discussion about what a garden is, but because I think it's really relevant to thinking about how the Rio Grande moves through Albuquerque.

So let's step back for a minute, because I think it's interesting to think about why the theme of gardens is in this book.

So the book is Rivens of Green, the Rio Grande, and the Making of Modern Albuquerque, co-written with Bob Behrens, Robert P. Behrens, former director of the Water Resources Program, good friend of the podcast, and Ren and I, the three of us teach a class together each fall for water resources graduate students.

And the book emerged from work that Bob and I have been doing for years, thinking about the institutions, the rules, the systems we build to manage water.

And we think a lot about how those systems and rules came to be.

in Albuquerque, in Albuquerque's relationship with the Rio Grande.

And it started with this idea that was cooking in my mind for a long time in terms of an idea for a book that I wanted to write and really turned into a book Bob and I wanted to write together because we worked together so closely on this stuff about how we write rules to manage water.

How does our obligation to our neighbors in a broader sense play a role in why the river is dry?