[laughs] I think I had driven, I think I had driven him so crazy.

But that's how it goes, right? Like that-- I just did a race in California.

It was a 100-miler around like Big Bear, out-- LA and like 100-mile race.

This guy, Hayden Hawks, one of the best US trail runners.

We ran together for the first 10 miles, and I was like, "Hayden's looking good.

I'm-- This is a little too much for me.

Let him go." I'm running in second the entire time.

Let's end it with three things that you'd recommend every human out there do, you know, ritual, uh, thinking, whatever, whatever it may be to, to optimize their life, you know, get the best performance out of their life.

You're like, I don't think that was an insult.

[laughs] I think that's good.

And I think it was, actually.

I'm still not totally sure, but, you know, that's okay.

Uh, no, it felt right.

I mean, it...

Well, the funniest, the thing that I laugh about myself, that I laugh to myself about the most is just the fact that they're all sub-ultra races.

Now, as a race director, I'm wondering how that's changed the way you think about what makes an event truly memorable and a, and a good event and a good event experience.

If you are out on the course at a officially sanctioned event like Cocodona or on paper sanctioned event, how would you feel if you would know that you are sort of yo-yoing in the top 10 with folks that have self-selected that event? that they are not interested in the podium.

Yeah, I think that's a weird...

It's a weird thing, and...

this is a small, I just can't get it.

Like one thing too, that's worth mentioning is like people like Cam Haynes make a lot more money than somebody like I make off of this.

So when you think about the overall economics of this, like there's a lot more money right now in trail racing and being a huge personality and a huge following than there is in being a high performing runner.

Those two things both do the same thing for brands where they give you validation of a product and just the way the, audiences work like if you have a podcast with a hundred thousand listeners you're going to be able to turn that for and make it really into like a business and a lot of a lot of you know people chasing podiums uh you know, like campaigns doesn't make his money from, from winning races or, uh, his performance that helps validate him just like helps validate me.

You don't get a buckle, right? So how do you sort of tell the story that you get enough people out, that brands are happy, that you are happy, you get signups, right? Sort of What's the it that gets people excited?