Jenny Shipley

Um, National went down a similar path.

And after, after, um, Jim Bolger, Jenny Shipley, and, and the, um, Peters experiment at that stage [laughs] they fell apart.

So Clark on, there has been, um, governments who have gone, "We've just got to manage carefully.

We're management politicians.

My point was gonna be-

[laughs]

... um, that this anti-debt stance that you can see that, um, National and uh, Willis in particularly is embodiment of, of this policy, she's really big on this, "I'm a mother, and I will not pass on debt to the generation" And it takes me back to Jenny Shipley when we, when Diane and I interviewed Jenny Shipley for the Ninth Floor series.

Um, it was such a personal and almost visceral part of Jenny Shipley's motivation as a politician was, um, she said that, um, as a mother, she was, quote, "really anxious" in the 1980s that we were living in a debt-ridden and accumulating debt environment.

National went down a similar path.

And after Jim Bolger, Jenny Shipley and Peter's experiment at that stage, they fell apart.

So Clark on, there has been governments who have gone, we've just got to manage carefully.

We're management politicians.

She's really big on this.

I'm a mother and I will not pass on debt to the generation.

And it takes me back to Jenny Shipley when we...

When Guyon and I interviewed Jenny Shipley for the Ninth Floor series, it was such a personal and almost visceral part of Jenny Shipley's motivation as a politician.

But I think there is psychological fucking logjam with people like Arden or like...

Yeah, there was a bit of logjam about Helen Clark and Jenny Shipley too.

Yeah, but I think that was...

I think that was more of a

It was 21%.

In fact, you have to go back to Jenny Shipley.

And then Jenny Shipley had it at 31%.

Hold on.

So if we can't – if that analysis is right, then if we're seeing the number of core public servants jump by about 15,000 since I think the second Aderne administration – Then if the number of public servants per capita is the same, that means that we are taking people

And if you go

back further, even to Jenny Shipley, I think she was in the top, maybe the first 30 female MPs.

And now I think, I can't remember what number I am, but we're well into the hundreds or even maybe the...

So it's, yeah, no, it's definitely changed in that respect.

Prime minister, um, attorney general, a governor general, and Dame Sian Elias as, um, chief justice, the only time four women have held those key constitutional roles.

And also, I think at the time, uh, Dame Jenny Shipley was leader of the opposition, so-

There's five

...

Yeah.

Also, Bill English becomes leader of the New Zealand National Party, ousting Jenny Shipley.

Helen Clark retaining power.

Dude, I always