So what are the discussions that go on there around the podcast?

It was so unexpected so I get this, it happened insanely quick.

So it was October and I get this call from my agent and I miss it because she lives in LA and I miss it and I'm like oh what's up and she goes I'm about to go to bed I'm gonna call you in the morning but like be prepared and I was like oh no something terrible has happened.

I always am like, we're getting sued, I don't know why, my partner's a lawyer and I'm constantly afraid of getting sued, I think, because I see him talking about it all the time.

And she calls me the next morning, I'm like, what's happening? And she's like, you need to be like, where are you? And I was like, oh my god.

And she's like, you need to be sitting down.

And I also was like, she's going to tell me really great news about herself because she was, it's a long story, but I really like my agent.

Are people in their 20s outsourcing their emotions to AI right now?

[upbeat music]

Hello, everybody.

I'm Jemma Sbeg.

Thank you so much, Grace, for passing over the mic.

I'm thrilled to be one of your cover teachers for this Future Self series.

If you are a longtime follower of Working Hard, you might recognize me from previous episodes I've done with Grace or my own podcast, The Psychology of Your 20s, now on Netflix.

I'm also the author of Person in Progress: A Psychological Guide to Your 20s, and I run the Study of the Week series on Substack, where we break down academia into simple terms.

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I

love this study.

I've actually, I've spoken about this on my podcast before.

And one of the explanations the researchers give, and now I'm thinking maybe it's not the same study, but there was a bunch of studies around this time where researchers wanted to understand why people are so attracted to emotional unavailability in many ways.

And the explanation they give is, is that if you are somebody who is perhaps a high achiever, very intelligent, very empathetic, very much prides themselves on being quite smart, a problem solver, a perfectionist, this individual who does not like you back is like the ultimate challenge for you because it's also tied up in your self-worth the way that so many like a lot of other things just aren't as tied up in your self-worth as being rejected by somebody who you romantically are interested in and so we see this like situation and we're like well if I can solve that if I can convince them to like me if I can overthink this until I find the reason why they don't then I can eradicate this rejection feeling and I can bring back this sense of achievement in my life and I always say that I think high achieving women are so much more likely to fall for emotional unavailability because it is like the ultimate test for them and they're so used to not getting anything easy you know I don't know if your mom or your dad or your parent ever said this to you of like the best things weren't worth having Yeah.

Like not everybody can have them.

Yeah.

who knows whatever term I've been labeled and so I just don't think it's fair to do right off the bat but at the same time you want to be vetting people to protect yourself so it's a fun dance

If you were to explain neuroplasticity to a five-year-old, how would you explain it?

Um, essentially the plants that you water more are the ones that grow, right? And the plants in this case are your neural pathways.

Not specifically your neurons, but your pathways.

Or another way to think about it is, like the path that you walk through the field is the one that becomes more established, right? When you think, I don't, not just positively, because negatively as well, but when you have a certain way of thinking about your life or a certain way of thinking about what is happening to you or about your luck or anything, that becomes an ingrained belief, because every time something happens to you, you'll have a belief that like, "Of course this always happens to me," negative connotation.

Or if something good happens to you, "Of course this always happens to me," positive connotation.

And essentially we're using like a very pessimistic, optimistic, like, you know, juxtaposition here, but it can be anything.

The more you think that, the more of a truth it becomes, because you have to remember the only truth you actually have about your world and life is the truth that you hold internally.

Ooh.

If you were to explain neuroplasticity to a five-year-old, how would you explain it?

Um, essentially the plants that you water more are the ones that grow, right? And the plants in this case are your neural pathways, not specifically your neurons, but your pathways.

Or another way to think about it is like the path that you walk through the field is the one that becomes more established, right? When you think...

and not just positively because negatively as well, but when you have a certain way of thinking about your life or a certain way of thinking about what is happening to you or about your luck or anything, that becomes an ingrained belief because every time something happens to you, you'll have a belief that like, of course, this always happens to me, negative connotation, or if something good happens to you, of course, this always happens to me, positive connotation.

And essentially we're using like a very pessimistic, optimistic, like you know, juxtaposition here, but it can be anything.

The more you think that, the more of a truth it becomes because you have to remember the only truth you actually have about your world and life is the truth that you hold internally.

Like your perspective on life is the truth, is reality.

Okay, I need to do that tonight.

Maybe there won't even be a world to be looked

after.

But yeah, it's like, you know, your kids might not want to do that.

Like it doesn't guarantee, having kids doesn't guarantee this like amazing future.

Yeah.

And I think the questions that I ask myself, which is the only advice I really can give, is like, which one of these things do I fantasize or am I romanticizing more? So when I think about my child-free life, I really romanticize, you know, being...

45, 50, and all my friends, you know, having debt from putting their kids through school and all that, and I'm off in Ibiza.

How much effort should I put into challenging her racist talking points?

And I think maybe it jarred me a little bit because I was like, this is written by someone who is undoubtedly been very extraordinary in their 20s.

Yeah.

So the article, I kind of first posted it as a podcast episode because that's my job as I do.

And it's basically this feeling that's been that just has followed me for most of my 20s, which is, is this where I'm going to peak? Is this all I'm going to be? You know, I have a podcast that is literally about my 20s and the question I get every single day is like, oh, are you going to do the psychology of your 30s? Like, what happens when you turn 30? What happens when you turn 30? What's going to happen? And I really appreciate the question because I can tell people are invested, but it is a lot of pressure to be like, oh...

am I going to have achieved my biggest thing in my 20s? And why does that feel like such a curse, but then also what we're expected to do as well? And I think there is this huge societal messaging, whether it's explicit or not, that your 20s are the time when you need to have figured out what you're going to do.

You need to have found a way to be the best at it.

It's where we celebrate success And we really put people who succeed in this decade on a pedestal more than any other decade.

So I think that's a really weird concept that now it feels a lot more

Wow.

I, I fully was like, I was going for promotions at my old job.

I was, like, investing in the culture and I, and I, I did love the community at my old job.

Like, it w- it was quite sad to leave.

But I was like, "I'm gonna make it to manager, then I'm gonna be a director, and then I'm gonna be a principal at this firm, and this podcast thing will just follow along with me." And I have to give a shout-out.

I had...

Like, I think I was very lucky where I had an agent from the US reach out to me.

It's going to be you making decisions for yourself.

You in? Must be 21 to enter.

Um, essentially the plants that you water more are the ones that grow, right? And the plants in this case are your neural pathways.

Not specifically your neurons, but your pathways.

Or another way to think about it is like the path that you walk through the field is the one that becomes more established, right? When you think, I don't, not just positively, because negatively as well, but when you have a certain way of thinking about your life or a certain way of thinking about what is happening to you or about your luck or anything, that becomes an ingrained belief.

Because every time something happens to you, you'll have a belief that like, "Of course this always happens to me," negative connotation.

Or if something good happens to you, "Of course this always happens to me," positive connotation.

And essentially we're using like a very pessimistic/optimistic, like, you know, juxtaposition here, but it can be anything.

How do you make a decision when everything feels equally possible and equally terrifying?"

Check responses for accuracy.

Um, essentially the plants that you water more are the ones that grow, right? And the plants in this case are your neural pathways.

Not specifically your neurons, but your pathways.

Or another way to think about it is, like, the path that you walk through the field is the one that becomes more established, right? When you think, and, and not just positively, because negatively as well, but when you have a certain way of thinking about your life or a certain way of thinking about what is happening to you or about your luck or anything, that becomes an ingrained belief.

Because every time something happens to you, you have a belief that like, "Of course, this always happens to me," negative connotation, or if something good happens to you, "Of course this always happens to me," positive connotation.

And essentially we're using like a very pessimistic, optimistic, like, you know, juxtaposition here, but it can be anything.

The more you think that, the more of a truth it becomes because you have to remember the only truth you actually have about your world and life is the truth that you hold internally.

How do you make a decision when everything feels equally possible and equally terrifying?"

Mm.

I really rarely think that it's gonna be work, good news.

I just try and keep that out of my mind.

And then she's like, I missed her message.

She's like, "I have to go to sleep.

I'm gonna call you in the morning." She was in L- in London, so I had to wait a whole day being like, "Oh, what's she gonna tell me?" She goes, "Are you sitting down?" And I was like, "Oh, no, just tell me, tell me." She goes, "I just got off the phone last night with, um, iHeart and Netflix, and Netflix is bringing 15 podcasts onto their platforms worldwide, and they want you to do it." And I was like, "That's a lie.

Thank you very much-

Yeah.

Wow.

I, I fully was like, I was going for promotions at my old job.

I was, like, investing in the culture.

And I, and I, I did love the community at my old job.

Like, it, it was quite sad to leave.

But I was like, "I'm gonna make it to manager, then I'm gonna be a director, and then I'm gonna be a principal at this firm, and this podcast thing will just follow along with me." And I have to give a shout-out.

I had...

That, like, it's gonna be, like, the, the schedule change, it's going to be you making decisions for yourself.

... that's a different beast.

Mm.

I think it all comes back to, like, this very human, very instinctual urge to just be accepted, and to belong, and to feel like you matter.

Like, one of my favorite quotes or ideas is that the only thing that anyone wants is for someone else to bear witness to their life, and that doesn't have to be a romantic partner.

It could be friends, it could be your colleagues, anyone around you.

You wanna feel like if you were gone, people would care.

And so that fear of missing out and that fear of being disliked, I think comes back to that very primal need.

... because you're doing this podcast, so you talk to a lot more people in their 20s.

[gentle music] What if one phrase could change how you see your entire week? I'm Jemma Spake, and if you love the introspection, honesty, and just the big sister energy that Chloe brings to Chloe in Wonderland, I think you'll really enjoy my show, Mantra.

Every Monday, I share one simple but powerful phrase to ground you for the week ahead, and then I break it down with real stories and personal insights.

So far this season, I've been exploring some really impactful themes like allowing yourself to be celebrated and releasing the need to do it all.

One of my absolute favorite episodes is for the mantra, "I let my work speak louder than my doubt." I feel like we all struggle with imposter syndrome, doubting ourselves before others can doubt us, and this episode came at a time when I actually really needed the reminder myself.

So in case this is a reminder that you need, well, great news, because I have a preview of that very episode for you right now.

So stay tuned to check it out and make sure to follow Mantra wherever you get your podcasts.

Hmm

... about this person, who is her maid of honor, who has probably sacrificed a lot, who has put time into this beautiful speech.

Also, like, just because someone's personality is different to yours doesn't mean it's wrong.

You know what I mean? It's literally the same as what we were talking about before, where it's like you can't...

Like, just let people live their life.

She's introverted.

That's all right.

Oh