What about the stories that you were able to break during your time there? What was the toughest one to actually get to the light of day and to actually surface?

Well, this probably doesn't sound so tough, but I'm going to talk about it because it was really a team effort.

And I think it's something that you couldn't do today.

And that is, in 2017, the United States was very concerned about North Korea and its ability to get the nuclear weapon.

And so therefore, they were very concerned about China dealing with North Korea and allowing North Korea to sidestep sanctions.

So we went up to the border with Dandong.

As you know, Dandong is the big border town between China and North Korea.

And how did you differentiate? How did you sit with the source and understand what information would be of value to your readers and what information should be scrutinized or discarded?

What about the stories that you were able to break during your time there? What was the toughest one to actually get to the light of day and to actually surface?

Well, this probably doesn't sound so tough, but I'm going to talk about it because it was really a team effort.

And I think it's something that you couldn't do today.

And that is, in 2017, the United States was very concerned about North Korea and its ability to get the nuclear weapon.

And so therefore, they were very concerned about China dealing with North Korea and allowing North Korea to sidestep sanctions.

So we went up to the border with Dandong.

As you know, Dandong is the big border town between China and North Korea.

And how did you differentiate? How did you sit with the source and understand what information would be of value to your readers and what information should be scrutinized or discarded?

Like, I'm thinking about what my children's work life might be like in thirty years.

I think your children will see a far more dominant China, and you m-may see a China that has surpassed the United States in the world, certainly in thirty years, and for sure, a more dominant China in Asia.

I think, you know, the Chinese keep saying the West is declining, and by that they mean, "We're gonna take over Asia pretty soon." What does that mean? It means that I think, uh, your children will no longer see American allies in Asia.

Japan and South Korea will be in very different positions.

They probably have their own nuclear weapons, assuming we're all still alive, um, which is sort of a gloomy thought.

But, you know, nuclear weapons are going to play an increasing role in all of this because there are no treaties, et cetera, and the Chinese are expanding their nuclear arsenal a lot.

This is the kind of thing that I'm worrying about, and I think that you'll see the Chinese being far more dominant in world trade.

Jane, just keep going down that road, um, which is to say, what, what, what case are they making? Are they making the case to their neighbors, which is the US will abandon you when it is convenient? Or like, play that out a little bit more in terms of how they see Iran as a possible opportunity.

hope, if anything, to get out of it?

Well, we're just midpoint and everybody, the Chinese side and the American side, is being very cautious from what I can see on what they're saying.

We've had a grand banquet in the Great Hall of the People where Trump has sort of swooned all over the Chinese predictably and Xi Jinping has said nice things about Trump.

We don't really know what's gone on behind, and maybe nothing much has gone on behind, but we do know what both sides want.

China wants Trump to keep tariffs as they are, and in exchange, China will buy beef, beans, and Boeings, American products, which all do very well in swing states, by the way.

Trump would probably seem to want some help on Iran.

And in exchange, the thinking goes, China would like the United States to reduce its armament packages to Taiwan, ideally to get out of Taiwan altogether, which that's probably not going to happen.

What does a world where China is dominant and ascendant and the United States is weaker and declining look like? How is it different than the world today? Is the dollar no longer the reserve currency? Is is, you know, are global relations carried out differently? I'm just curious, like I'm thinking about what my children's life might be like in 30 years.

Like, I'm thinking about what my children's work life might be like in thirty years.

I think your children will see a far more dominant China, and you m-may see a China that has surpassed the United States in the world, certainly in thirty years, and for sure, a more dominant China in Asia.

I think, you know, the Chinese keep saying the West is declining, and by that they mean, "We're gonna take over Asia pretty soon." What does that mean? It means that I think, uh, your children will no longer see American allies in Asia.

Japan and South Korea will be in very different positions.

They probably have their own nuclear weapons, assuming we're all still alive, um, which is sort of a gloomy thought, but you know, nuclear weapons are going to play an increasing role in all of this because there are no treaties, et cetera, and the Chinese are expanding their nuclear arsenal a lot.

This is the kind of thing that I'm worrying about.

And I think that you'll see the Chinese being far more dominant in world trade.

Jane, just keep going down that road, um, which is to say, what, what case are they making? Are they making the case to their neighbors, which is the US will abandon you when it is convenient? Or like play that out a little bit more in terms of how they see Iran as a possible opportunity.

She is a beautiful writer with a terrific accent, so please enjoy this special episode of Thanks for Being Here featuring Jane Perlez.

When I was growing up in Sydney, Australia, we lived next door to a famous writer.

Famous in Australia, that is.

Her name was Marjorie Barnard.

She wrote history, novels, short stories.

Some of the fiction had fantastical names like Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow or The Persimmon Tree.

As a kid, I understood the history best.

So what's the, what's the lay of the land when it comes to journalism in China?

Well, I think there was a period perhaps in the '80s when there was quite a lively press in China.

But since the squashing of the democracy movement in 1989 in Tiananmen Square, I don't think you could say there's been much freedom of the press.

I mean, here and there, there have been some brave publications and some brave radio stations and some really good work done.

But since Xi Jinping came to power, it's really gotten less and less.

But on the journalism front, I feel very passionate about this, that actually it's not China's fault so much as the first Trump administration, which did something which they knew would result in curtailing American journalists' presence in China.

Now, I think the way that Americans can learn about China is by having a lot of American journalists in China.

Yeah

Can you first just orient us around these two world leaders, Trump and Xi, and kind of where you see that relationship right now, and what dynamics are really driving the bus for both of them?

Well, of course, there are world dynamics, but I think one of the really interesting aspects of this is the backgrounds of these two guys, if you like.

Uh, sometimes I think of it as Capo el Capo.

Uh, you know, they're both very, very strong personalities, but they both come from very different backgrounds when you think about it.

They both come from privileged backgrounds in a way.

Uh, Xi is the son of a very famous, uh, Communist Party high, high official, but he was disgraced.

The father was disgraced, and Xi Jinping paid for that as a teenager, so he was sent to the rural countryside to work during the Cultural Revolution back in the '60s, and that was pretty rough.

On this question of the extent of his power, I recently read that he was feeling some pressure with regard to Taiwan, and I wanted to ask you, do you see it that way, and where would that pressure come from if, if he were to feel it?