And is it a frustrating element that you weren't able to get your game on the field because, as we've discussed a lot the last few days, South Africa did such a job controlling the pace and tempo of the game, particularly around the breakdown?

They're so good at that.

They are so good at that.

And that, that is frustrating.

I think we did put, we put them under pressure for periods of the game.

Like, and this isn't me saying, like, it was a brilliant performance.

That's not what I'm saying.

Yeah

How do you reflect on a, a tough night?

Oh, look, I'm gutted with it.

I'm gutted with the performance.

Uh, gutted with the result.

I'm, I'm gutted with parts of the performance actually.

Like, I thought there were some s- times where we really posed some, some big questions to the Springboks.

We looked d- like, we looked good.

What do you put the start down to?

And what have you taken from that, all those tests you led the side in 2024 to this tour?

I mean, the game's moved on a lot.

I, like, you know, I, I, I think the job that I did was a good one.

I, you know, I sort of know what works and what doesn't.

I've been around the block for long enough, I suppose, to, to realize that.

Um, I love the challenge of captaincy.

I love the challenge of getting the week right, the preparation, you know.

Yeah.

... that's, yeah?

We needed it.

We need- like obviously we, we were desperate to win, but we needed a performance, I think for belief, for momentum, for an excitement to come back, like we needed it, and we knew it was a big week, and like France away in the Six Nations, it like, it doesn't get as tough as that.

Like that is a tough fixture under a lot of pressure, and we just went out there and gone like, "Fuck this.

Fuck you.

You're getting it." Like, "This is the best of us." Like develop, like how do you deal with the best of us? And we, like we threw everything at it.

We really did.

So how much do you enjoy that role? And then with that, how much do you help Maro, let's say, or a George Ford or a Finn Smith and those other leaders within their segments?

Tell us, like, the occasion, the buildup, and if we compare that to a Prem, to the Investec Champions Cup, is there a difference? Do you sense there's a difference? Is it the pinnacle?

It's the pinnacle in club rugby, yeah.

Without doubt.

It's very different.

It's the closest, as you guys know, like it's the closest thing to test rugby you're gonna get.

Um, I think the knockout element of it, you know, is different to the Prem.

Obviously, like Prem finals are big occasions.

... very well known for, for the social aspect of it.

Given what's happened in the last couple of weeks and, and I suppose the trajectory, does it feel like this is very fixable very quickly, or has, uh, y- have you gotta do a bit of digging to get out of this?

this?Um, it, it feels very fixable.

And, and look, it's not necessarily easy because this is professional sport.

We're coming up against two very good teams over the next couple of weeks.

Um, but I think what, what we have seen, we've been encouraged by in terms of we played poorly for two weeks, but we've still been giving ourselves opportunities.

As Hast said, we've still been, you know, there's still parts of our game that have been very, very strong.

Scrum, Maul in particular have been brilliant actually over the last period of time.

Can I just ask you one more question just on, on something you said about the environment that you're in now? Um, inevitably, when results don't go your way, everyone outside of the camp starts talking about change, and is this right? Is that right? Is, you know, do we need different people in different places? From a player's perspective, it's very easy to say, "Yes, of course, I don't want anything to change." But i- is change actually the last thing this squad needs right now? Do you know what I mean? And i-i-if, if this outside noise picks up, i- would you say that is absolutely categorically not what this squad wants?