Tell us that story and how does it do the work for us? Yeah,

it's an amazing story because it's a story that surprises on a lot of levels.

To begin with, most of us think about 1945, 46 as a moment when things are getting better.

when the American society is becoming aware of the Holocaust, even if slowly, when Jews are winning acceptance, when America is looking towards a bright future.

It's a moment when anti-Semitism is a real threat to American Jews, and there's great fear about it.

And that fear is also because there are people like Father Arthur Terminello, who are the provocateur, agitator, ideologues, demagogues of his day.

He's trying to create a national movement with a guy named Gerald L.K. Smith, a Protestant pastor.

And that was a critical moment, not only for the ACLU, but I also think for many American Jews and how we have come to think of the ACLU and civil liberties in general.

israel shifted to the right right and and and the language shifted it was no longer maybe a two-state solution or how can you give people equal rights and so so i think we should address that because that's been cut out of the discussion altogether

Absolutely.

I agree with you that there's been a big change in the left, and some of that has to do with the realities of Israel and Palestine.

What was a temporary post-war occupation in 67, and it has to be said, built on an unresolved conflict from 48 about the fate of Palestine and Palestinians.

That's a real problem.

It didn't get a lot of attention because people said, well, this is going to be resolved somehow with the geopolitical shifts in the world in the 70s.

And many American Jews assumed that eventually it would be resolved.

no.

That's, we have a whole structure of

civil rights, anti-discrimination law in this country.

We have a whole debate about the nature, about voting, about politics, about citizenship.

We're gonna have to work through all of those.

We're not gonna simply be able to say, as I think many people wish, if we could just get back to robust free expression, we're gonna be able to solve everything.

We're gonna have to reinvent liberalism by deciding what's gonna work for the pluralistic reality we live with today.

So what does that mean? I'm a historian, and I've written a book to explain how we got here.

So I guess my question to you is, do you think that suppression of legitimate, or what I would consider legitimate, anti-Israel viewpoints is actually igniting further anti-Semitism by kind of pushing it, you know, by pushing it sort of under the mainstream.

Yeah.

I mean, so that's the thing.

We're living in a weird moment, right? Because on the one hand, you can say, well, of course, there's a terrible war in the Middle East, right? It's incredibly divisive.

Progressives, this is a big cause, a big issue, right? On the other hand, we're still trying to make sense of what happened nine years ago in Charlottesville, right? And just to remind people, you've got a white supremacist rally, and they're there because they're there to protect Confederate statues.

They're there because they say, we're here for free speech and defending the white race and all these kinds of things.

And they say, overtly, we think... that Latino, Black, Asian, Muslim, these are all the others.

These are all the inferiors.

And, you know, and that is in response in that scene in the movie is the march on Skokie.

Yeah.

I mean, so that's the thing.

We're living in a weird moment, right? Because on the one hand, you can say, well, of course, there's a terrible war in the Middle East, right? It's incredibly divisive.

Progressives, this is a big cause, a big issue, right? On the other hand, we're still trying to make sense of what happened nine years ago in Charlottesville, right? And just to remind people, you've got a white supremacist rally, and they're there because they're there to protect Confederate statues, They're there because they say we're here for free speech and defending the white race and all these kinds of things.

And they say overtly, we think that Latino, black, Asian, Muslim, these are all the others.

These are all the inferiors.

And yet they end up saying this chant, Jews will not replace us.

And, you know, and that is in response in that scene in the movie is the march on Skokie.

It's, it's an absurdity, and yet it is kind of reported on and amplified, and it's gone around the world a dozen times before anyone's had a chance to go, "Hang on a moment."

Right.

Well, I think, I think the challenge is that, uh, first and foremost, we live in an environment where, uh, American Jews are quite fearful.

You know, the rate of violence, uh, in places like New York, uh, hate crimes is, is extraordinarily high.

Uh, and so people want to figure out what's the causal factor driving it, and it can't only be, you know, uh, not everyone's a neo-Nazi or not every- some- some is a religious fundamentalist, right? Uh, um, there, there are other factors driving it.

But we w- in our dir- in our urge to find quick solutions, we also then look for, you know, um, very easy explanations.

Um, the other problem with this is the question about, and this is really I think what the debate is with Mark Ruffalo, uh, and it's a debate that runs through history, I would say also, which is, um, intent versus impact.

... question and navigate it?

Who was Terminiello, uh, and, and why did, uh, Chicago have to bring suit?

Yep.

So Arthur Terminiello was a, a renegade Catholic priest, uh, who was so radical that he was, um, kicked out of his, uh, priestly, um, position by the church, um, because he had, uh, embraced, uh, a new campaign of white nationalism, uh, after, uh, during, uh, World War II, at the very end of it.

Um, and he had become really a, a figure that we, we know from American history and we know t- now today, he was the demagogue.

He had a radio show and began to broadcast conspiracy theories about, uh, why we had fought World War II involving the Jews.

He had all kinds of, um, uh, demands that, uh, to root out the threat of communists, we, uh, c- you know, stand up military brigades of, of vigilantes.

Um, and he found, um, himself catapulted into fame as part of an effort to revive what had really been, um, pre-World War II and early World War II, uh, Christian nationalism in American society.

So there's no covenant agreement that would pro- have prohibited it.

Who was Turman Yellow? And why did Chicago have to bring suits?

Yep.

So Arthur Terminello was a renegade Catholic priest who was so radical that he was kicked out of his priestly position by the church because he had embraced a new campaign of white nationalism during World War II at the very end of it.

And he had become really a figure that we know from American history and we know today he was the demagogue.

He had a radio show and began to broadcast conspiracy theories about why we had fought World War II involving the Jews.

He had all kinds of demands to root out the threat of communists.

We stand up military brigades of vigilantes.

So out of this riot

Who was Terminiello, uh, and, and why did, uh, Chicago have to bring suit?

Yep.

So Arthur Terminiello was a, a renegade Catholic priest, uh, who was so radical that he was, um, kicked out of his, um, priestly, um, position by the church, um, because he had, uh, embraced, a, a new campaign of white nationalism, uh, after, uh, during, uh, World War II, at the very end of it.

Um, and he had become really a, a figure that we, we know from American history and we know t- now today.

He was the demagogue.

He had a radio show and began to broadcast conspiracy theories about, uh, why we had fought World War II involving the Jews.

He had all kinds of, um, uh, demands that, to, to root out the threat of communists, we, uh, c- you know, stand up military brigades of, of vigilantes.

So there's no covenant agreement that would pro- have prohibited it.

Who was Terminiello, uh, and, and why did, uh, Chicago have to bring suit?

Yep.

So Arthur Terminiello was a, a renegade Catholic priest, uh, who was so radical that he was, um, kicked out of his, uh, priestly, um, position by the church, um, because he had, uh, embraced a, a new campaign of white nationalism, uh, after, uh, during, uh, World War II, at the very end of it.

Um, and he had become really a, a figure that we, we know from American history and we know t- now today, he was the demagogue.

He had a radio show and began to broadcast conspiracy theories about, uh, why we had fought World War II involving the Jews.

He had all kinds of, um, uh, demands that, to, to root out the threat of communists, we, uh, c- you know, stand up military brigades of, of vigilantes.

Um, and he found, um, himself catapulted into fame as part of an effort to revive what had really been, um, pre-World War II and early World War II Christian nationalism in American society.

So there's no covenant agreement that would pro- have prohibited it?

Who was Terminiello, uh, and, and why did, uh, Chicago have to bring suit?

Yep.

So Arthur Terminiello was a, a renegade Catholic priest, uh, who was so radical that he was, um, kicked out of his, um, priestly, um, position by the church, um, because he had, uh, embraced, uh, a new campaign of white nationalism, uh, after, uh, during, uh, World War II at the very end of it.

Um, and he had become really a, a figure that we, we know from American history and we know t- now today, he was the demagogue.

He had a radio show and began to broadcast conspiracy theories about, uh, why we had fought World War II involving the Jews.

He had all kinds of, um, uh, demands that, uh, to root out the threat of communists, we, uh, c- you know, stand up military brigades of, of vigilantes.

Um, and he found, uh, himself catapulted into fame as part of an effort to revive what had really been, um, pre-World War II and early World War II, uh, Christian nationalism in American society.

So there's no covenant agreement that would pro- have prohibited it?