Jagtar, do, do you concur with that, that it's, it's all a bit more complicated?

Right.

Um, many years ago, I went to a conference, uh, and a learning, uh, point to me was, as an ex-fire officer, when you put a problem in front of me, I put water on it, and it goes out.

That's a binary answer to every question.

Uh, but I've learned over time that every question is very complex, so complexity theory is the way that I would answer it.

Yes, Helen's absolutely right.

There are structures, there are systems, there are methods of holding people to account.

Jagtar?