What did you take away from that? You mentioned that couple, but what else did you hear?

I think that one of the things that I took away is that...

People have different reasons for being on these drugs, for not being on these drugs.

People identify as, quote unquote, bears in different ways.

And for some people, being a bear is exactly what they want to be.

physically and and they're quite proud of this archetype and of belonging in this community.

And I think that there also were people who who kind of became bears because it was really difficult for them to lose weight.

If the classic physical traits of bear culture, you know, the heavy build, the bellies, become less common, do you think that bears can remain a distinct subculture or do they kind of more blend into the wider gay community?

Mm-hmm.

I mean, it was sudden.

It was horrible.

She had, she had actually sent Sean Penn to Mexico to get experimental AIDS drugs.

I mean, I think she got him an apartment in the West Village so that he was close to St. Vincent's.

She, you know, she was, she was really there, and, and, um, and so she was there for this, this last moment.

I mean, I, I, I sometimes like to say that the reason why, I, part of why I think Madonna's been a kind of formative person in my own life is, is that having grown up in New York, I, I, I felt like what I was witness to was the end of the beginning and the beginning of the end, right?

Thank you, Jacob.