Yeah

... stuff that I knew would be useful to wildlife.

Um, but as time's gone on I've just learnt more and seen what works and what doesn't.

And so it's about establishing habitats.

And if you talk about plant communities where it's, um, I'm sure a lot of people know, but if not, it just, that's thinking about the whole bed as one with lo- all the plants living side by side, and they might self-seed or spread around.

A bit like the meadow is the classic example that's easy to understand, where you have loads of plants all stuffed in close together.

Um, but actually you can do plant communities of, uh, bigger sizes.

Mm

But th- there have been examples in the UK before, haven't there?

Yeah, there have.

So it's...

When I started to think about it as a, a researcher, and it was, like, the, the national, um, the garden shows you talked about in the, the '80, '70s and '80s, and I think there are four or five of them, and they had different levels of success.

So there's...

Not to play down the significant challenges of what we're talking about, uh, but they...

The idea was exactly the same.

So how do we, how do we move forward? And w- I, I suppose as well, what, what do you think one of these festivals or shows could actually look like? I'm interested in what you think they would include and involve.