Howard Baker

And I would agree with you that we went way too far on green initiatives pronouncing the end of fossil fuels instead of trying to figure out how to use fossil fuels in an environmentally sound manner.

Because I don't think it's a bad idea to One of my friends and mentors was Howard Baker, and I remember sitting with him in his office in Huntsville, Tennessee, and I said, what was the most significant thing you accomplished? And he said, the Clean Air and Clean Water Act.

He said, because if people don't have clean air and clean water, we're not serious about that.

We don't have health.

One final question, a lit- a little more, little more personal.

Um, this podcast is, uh, um, You Might Be Right is, is really, um, styled after, uh, Howard Baker's, um, statement that, "Just remember the other fellow might always be right." I mean, somebody who has obviously had strong partisan views but understood the need to keep an open mind about, uh, about issues.

Can you think of an example in your own, um, intellectual progress in the world, uh, where you had a view of something, and by being open to and listening to somebody who had a different view, you actually changed your mind about it?

Well, look, I think, uh, really the progression that led me to write the book was, um, you know, I think something that probably qualifies for that in terms of...

Uh, we, uh, we ask all of our guests, uh, taken from the name-

Mm-hmm

... of the podcast, uh, Howard Baker, uh, saying, "Always remember the other fellow might be right." Is there a time you-

Mm-hmm

... you know, Kool-Aid drinkers and next of kin, as I like to say.

But somebody somewhere with some ability to reign him in is going to have to, I think, step in at some p- point and be the Howard Baker, uh, of this moment, and prevent this country from going over the cliff.

Because he is, I totally agree with you, he is in a desperate, dark place, and he is not the kind of person...

He's not like Nixon who will just say, "Well, I guess I better leave the presidency.

Yeah.

And I, I, I agree with you.

I have no idea who the Howard Baker is, 'cause I don't see any Howard Bakers out there.

I don't either.

I did write it, but I would never have written that speech for anyone other than President Reagan.

Howard Baker might have been president.

He ran against Reagan.

Howard Baker was then Chief of Staff.

He opposed the line.

Or George H.W. Bush, whom I worked for when he was vice president, whenever I gave him a speech on foreign policy, his first question was always, "Has State approved this?" Ronald Reagan, Ronald Reagan didn't care if State approved something if he thought something was important and valuable.

And the fact that this is not new, this started in 2014.

Well, before that, going back to the early 2000s, the fall of the Berlin Wall, when there were promises made by the US without the ability or no, I should say without the authority, it committed Europe to not expanding under NATO by saying there will not be one inch our Baker recorded, right? I'm only recorded, but you know, in print available, take a look at it saying we will not move NATO or all right.

The EU one inch into previous Soviet block countries.

Do they have that? Does Howard Baker speak for those countries? No.

Do those countries fear Russia? Yes, they do.

They do not want to be part of the USSR.

One last question we ask all our guests.

Howard Baker had a famous quote saying, always remember the other person might be right.

Can you think of a time when you, and maybe even hopefully something as it relates to this whole districting and reapportioning, if you will, when you said, you know, I didn't quite have that right.

Now that I've learned more, I have a different view.

So I think there's a lot of experimentation at the state level, and we can learn a lot from it.

Good.

Sam, we always ask all of our guests a question from Howard Baker of, can you tell us a time when you realized the other person might be right? Howard Baker said, always remember the other person might be right.

Can you think of a case where you realized, like, I didn't have this quite right and the other did? And maybe it'd be helpful if something as it related to elections and redistricting happened.