Helmut Schmidt

And then you've got deeper rituals that go on other times of the year there and other places.

And we know about that because a German chancellor, Helmut Schmidt, wrote about it in his book, his autobiography.

It's also leaked out where members have talked about how it's just a gateway into it.

So the point is, is that it is emerging.

...

Helmut Schmidt, uh, was a new chancellor who was very much, uh...

I, I mean, West Germany in, in the '70s was, was really kind of a mess, and, um, the, um, some people believe that the government, you know, you know, that's when, um, Willy Brandt, who was the longtime mayor of West Berlin, um, some viewed him as a fifth columnist, um, owing to his kind of friendly, uh, his overly friendly posture towards the DDR.

Uh, but that's a whole other story.

But, um, it, uh, pretty much immediately, um, after, uh, like after the, like, like I'm talking like, you know, days after the, uh, the incident, um, the, uh, a, a bunch of the imprisoned RAF members, uh, died, um, supposedly by suicide, um, including Andreas Baader, Gudrun Ensslin, Jan-Carl Rasp, and, um, Ingrid Möller, who, uh, supposedly attempted suicide but survived her injuries.

But, um, the belief, the claim of Möller, as well as others, was that, um, you know, these, these people were murdered by, by the guards.

And, uh, it was in the immediate, uh, aftermath, uh, Helmut Schmidt, um, who was the consular, uh, of the Buddhist Republic, he, uh, he was hailed as a hero in the Western world for, you know, for his decision to storm the aircraft and refuse to negotiate.

Um, and, you know, he, uh...

And I mention this because, you know, if you look at those who really, um, adored him and rejoiced in his intellect across the world, they, they come from all different kinds of political stripes.

I mean, um, the, you know, Helmut Schmidt, for example, is, you know, of the German left, and they, you know, I think had a long-standing, deeply, um, you know, sort of- ... fruitful, you know, dialogue for decades.

And so I just wonder, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm constantly trying to persuade young, young people to go abroad and to take the Fulbright or do, you know, this or that fellowship.

I mean, do you think that there's something of a lost art in, in the fact that, you know, in order to accomplish that sort of communication, you have to, you know, kind of learn the art of omission, uh, and sort of try to find ways to, uh, really foster common ground? Uh, you know, the, the-- we might consider this as part of the typical diplomatic toolkit, but I mean, as someone who, you know, spent much of his sort of active career outside of government after this incredibly, you know, intense stint, um, I just wonder whether there might be something to learn from, from how he communicated, because it, again, as I say, I, I, I just find myself running up against people's sort of fear of this and unwillingness to try and sort of, those sorts of things.

Das heißt, wir werden endgültig zum Vasall.

Das waren wir vorher auch schon, aber es gab mal, sage ich mal, so unter Willy Brandt und, äh, ähm, Helmut Schmidt immer noch so Bestrebungen innerhalb des Spielraums, den sie hatten, den auch irgendwo auszureizen und noch mal deutsche Interessen durchzusetzen.

Und das sehe ich jetzt im Moment nicht, dass es deutsche Politiker gäbe, die sich für deutsche Interessen einsetzen.

Und das ist doch, ich mein, ich glaube, wir kommen immer näher auch zu dem Punkt, ähm, dass man ganz klar sagen muss, wenn Sie das ja selbst auch schon ausdrücken.

Und wir opfern hier unsere Interessen, äh, sozusagen für, für andere Interessen.

Und das ist das große Problem.

Ich glaube, das hätte früher Helmut Schmidt, äh, nicht gemacht, ja, weil der das kapiert hätte.

Er wär auch den Ukrainern auf die Füße getreten, dass sie die Minsker Abkommen, äh, einhalten.