Gwen Verdon

Yes.

And after she did Pajama Game, when Damn Yankees by the same writers was done, and they cast a skater named Belita in the lead, in the Gwen Verdon part of Damn Yankees.

And she couldn't do it.

She wasn't good enough.

And I actually think she would be okay in this.

So the thing is, so Lola was originally played on the Richard Bobby cast by Gwen Verdon.

So a dancer first.

Yes.

Well, you know, she is very closely associated with Fosse.

who kind of became his new muse after his falling out with his wife, Gwen Verdon, which is a whole other history.

But, you know, Rose Byrne played her in the remake, and she is a lovely, beautiful presence, but there is...

This is a one-dimensional role, Grace Farrell.

It's one or two.

And I think Gwen Verdon convinced Fosse, who she was married to at the time.

Chicago is based on a play, and I think she kind of helped make it be turned into a musical.

Oh.

And then...

Gwen Verdon and Chita Rivera led the cast, and Jerry Orbach played Billy Flynn.

And it's such a beloved musical, but it went up against a chorus line, and a chorus line was a really big deal when it came out.

And I say that like I hate a chorus line.

Bob Fosse himself cast her in a rendition of Sweet Charity.

She said that Fosse liked her version of Sweet Charity because of how different it was from Gwen Verdon's version of the role.

Gwen Verdon originated the role and was Bob Fosse's former muse and wife.

He said that Debbie Allen's version of the role had real street smarts, and she brought that edge to the beloved musical.

In 1986, she

once again nominated for a Tony in Sweet Charity, so Fosse was right.

This was a fresh take on the role, and it was worthy of praise.

Now, I found an episode of Fame where Gwen Verdon and Debbie Allen kind of have like a choreography off.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, there was also Gwen Verdon and Chita Rivera.

So, you know, it was sort of, they were probably getting some of the roles that she wanted to get.

And I read that the guy who wrote the book about Bob Fosse was that Chicago was, I think he phrased it something like, was one of the last of its kind of creating a show around a star, as opposed to moving to, let's say, the ensemble cast, Andrew Lloyd Webber, like a big cast, but no one particular star in it.

Absolutely.

Like I've got a career just like I taught Gwen Verdon how to use a cell phone, like amongst all the things is like Frances Sternhagen sitting with Baryshnikov, like all these little things that nobody saw.

They're very proud.

Well, they saw me sit next to Baryshnikov, but yeah.