What does that mean?

So in my Four Tendencies framework, um, I divide people into four categories: upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels, um, to do with how they respond to expectations, which sounds super boring, but ends up being, like, really, really juicy information.

And this is all on my website.

You can go to GretchenRubin.com and, like, take an actual quiz, um, to find out your tendency.

But most people can tell what they are just from a brief description.

So in a nutshell, we all face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations like a work deadline, and inner expectations like your own desire to keep a New Year's resolution.

So depending on whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations, that's what makes you an upholder, a questioner, obliger, or rebel.

Gretchen, uh, uh, people might hear the exhortation to move your body or get more sleep and think, "Yeah, I've tried that, but I can't get into the habit." Uh, what, what would you advise?

Why don't you go ahead and do that?

OK, so we're talking about the four tendencies, which is an upholder like me, a questioner, an obliger or a rebel like you.

And this has to do with how a person responds to expectations.

And we all face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations like a work deadline and inner expectations like our own desire to keep a New Year's resolution.

So there's four combinations of outer and inner, and that's what gives you the four tendencies.

Now, there is a quiz on my site.

You can go to quiz.gretchenrubin.com and take this very quick, easy quiz.

And so were there any surprises for you and your husband as you two went through these and anything that came out that was helpful that you can share?

Yes.

Well, first, I, you did something that I think is such a good hack for everybody, which is you thought back on your past and said, "What is something that has made me happier in the past that I'm not doing now?" Because often there are clues in the past.

Like, oh, there was a time when I was cooking all the time.

There was a time when I, I looked forward to going t- to exercise, or there was a time when I got up early without effort.

And it's like, okay, but what about that time? And, and because sometimes we can just, something in our, something like you, all of a sudden you had to manage a different kind of social experience.

Like, but that was just, but it was worth it, it turned out to you.

But I think a lot of times we have clues in the past, but we don't think about the past.

What does being w- when does being unhappy become useful information, and when does it become a spiral? Like, what's the difference?

Talk to me about knowing thyself, and then talk to me about the four tendencies.

Oh, right.

Yes.

No, the, you, you put your finger on something that's absolutely essential, which is that we each have to approach a happiness for ourselves, because we each have different interests, different temperaments, different values.

And the morning people and night people is a great example.

About 30% of people are night people.

They're at their most productive and creative and energetic later in the day.

Mm.

Yeah

... to put your finger on exactly what it is.

We debate that a lot, but it is different.

It's like a thriller or a mystery or science fiction or fantasy or, you know, horror.

There, they, there, there's a kind of thing that some people have a ta- taste for and some people do not have a taste for, and what a lot of adults don't realize is that you can continue to have a taste for children's literature and young adult literature even once you're an adult.

And so I mean, I remember o- one person, 'cause I'm constantly adding people to these groups.

Now there's more than one.

Yeah

So, so how did you get started with that?

Well, you know, it was a very inconspicuous moment of my day.

I was s- stuck on the city bus in the pouring rain, and I didn't have any book to read or anything to distract myself with, so I, I was looking out the window and I thought, "Well, what do I want from life anyway?" And I thought, "I wanna be happy." But I realized I didn't spend any time thinking about whether I was happy or how I could be happier, and I thought, "Well, I should have a happiness project," and that was the word that it came to my mind.

And I ran out to the library the next day and got a giant stack of books about happiness and started reading.

And this is something that happens to me often.

Like, I will get obsess- like, I just went through this big obsession with color.

I was, like, obsessed with color.

... that s- sure the first time around?

What, can you remember the moment where...

Oh.

Well, one of my favorite things about myself is I'm very subject to epiphany, and I always know exactly where I have it.

So I was, uh, we're in New York City right now.

I was on 79th Street on the crosstown bus, and, um- I looked out the window.

I was...

I, it was pouring rain, and the bus was moving very slowly, so I had one of those rare opportunities for reflection that, you know, sometimes in the busyness of everyday life we don't really have.

How did you come up with these? Are, th- is it, is this, uh, um, sort of, uh, riffing on somebody else's work, or this is all original?

It was my first time out.

Yeah.

Like I remember not understanding like something like first pass.

I don't, I still am like, remind me what about first pass? For me, a huge thing.

And I didn't know this until I was like on my third book.

So this is, this is the kind of thing you learn the hard way is, um, There's a point at which you can make lots of changes.

You can change anything you want.

Yep.

And so I wonder how can you get their input about what they want their summer to be like, but also make it something where you're meeting your needs as well?

Well, I think that is a great idea, which is to sit down and think, like, as a family, how do we wanna design our summer? What, what does everybody want from it? And I think sometimes for ourselves and for our children, we tend to overschedule, and there's sort of a feeling of, like, we're rushing from one thing to another, and we don't give ourselves a big margin, but that is another thing, I think, to think about as you design your summer is, like, what is your pace? What is your energy level? How crowded do you like your days to be? Because some people really do love running from one thing to another, and like, "Let's jump in the car and go here and go here," and they like that feeling, and they like that pace.

And then other people [laughs] like this, there's a quotation from Thoreau where he said, "I like a broad margin to my life." And I'm like, I need a broad margin.

I don't like to rush.

I like to have a lot of time in between things.

I could spend a whole day puttering, um, and my family is kinda the same.

So we take it pretty slow.

So what if that happens in the summer? You know, you set your theme or your intentions, you make your bucket list, and then you get to, you know, end of July, early August, and you're not doing it.

Mm-hmm

... and so that was very interesting.

Yeah, and so it was just fascinating to go with her because she was seeing so many things that I did not see.

And I like having sort of, uh, a-Tools or like kind of a, a concrete approach to try, because I think that, that makes it easier when you're like, "Okay, I'll go close, I'll go back, I'll squint." One thing that I did that was really interesting was I took some of my favorite works and went and bought postcards of them, and then went and looked at the postcard and looked at the actual object.

And that's interesting because you really notice different things in the postcard.

And you can say, "Well, the postcard is kind of flattened," and that's true, but you definitely, you can see it more completely, uh, especially a larger thing, when you look at a postcard.

And so different things pop out at you.

So music, I guess, you've come to see as a kind of medicine.

So first, let's break those four personality types down, and then let's talk about how each one can approach their goals.

goals.Right. You're, um, right.

This is the four tendencies, and it's a, it's a framework that divides people into four categories: upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels.

And so what this is looking at is a very narrow aspect of your nature, but a very significant, like something that really has a lot of consequences.

And what it's looking at is how you respond to expectations.

And we all face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations, like a work deadline, and inner expectations, like my own desire to get back into practicing guitar.

So depending on whether you meet or resist outer or inner expectations, that's what makes you an upholder, questioner, obliger, or rebel.

Why is this?

Talk to us about how you ended up drifting into a law career, and what actually snapped you out of it.

So drift is the decision that we make by not deciding, or by making decisions where we don't really take responsibility for the consequences.

So often we drift because we don't know what else to do, we're just going along with what other people expect from us, um, maybe we don't wanna have a conflict with somebody, um, maybe we have an idea of ourselves and this fits that idea and so we just go ahead and do it without even really reflecting on it.

Um, and so it's like you get married because all your friends are getting married.

You go to medical school because both your parents are doctors.

Um, you go to medical school because your parents really want you to go to m- medical school and they're putting a lot of pressure on you to go to medical school, and you don't know what else to do with yourself, so you're like, "Okay, fine, I'll just go to medical school," 'cause, like, who wants to get into it? And it's funny that I say medical school, 'cause you might think, "Well, nobody would drift into medical school because it's so hard." It's like, oh yes, I've spoken to many, many medical students, and many people, the fact that you are drifting does not mean that it's easy.

Drift has kind of overtones of, like, laziness or easiness.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

"Claudia knew that she could never pull off the old-fashioned kind of running away.

That is, running away in the heat of anger with a knapsack on her back.

She didn't like discomfort.

Even picnics were untidy and inconvenient, all those insects and the sun melting the icing on the cupcakes.

Therefore, she decided that her leaving home would not be just running from somewhere, but would be running to somewhere.

To a large place, a comfortable place, and an indoor place, and preferably a beautiful place.

[upbeat music]

So for my listeners who have never heard of the four tendencies, which will change their lives, could you kind of break it down? And how did you even come up with this?

I am kind of a happiness bully.

That's what my sister calls me.

And so I was quizzing a friend of mine about her habits and her happiness.

And she said, the weird thing about me is I know I'm happier when I exercise.

And when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice.

So why can't I go running now? Yeah.

But if someone listening is not familiar, how can they use their tendency to help them not only get started, but with that follow through of those expectations of maintaining a home?

What do you mean by that?

If you're thinking about how to make your life happier, there's, there's four to four pieces that you can think of: feeling good, feeling bad, feeling right, and an atmosphere of growth.

So feeling good is having more of the things that make you feel good.

Then there are getting rid of the things that make you feel bad.

Then there's feeling right, which is does your life reflect your values? And sometimes we do things that don't make us feel good, they might make us feel bad, but we do them because they make us feel right.

So you might visit a sick friend in the hospital even though you hate going to hospitals, you dread going, you don't enjoy being there, and you look back on it with dread, and yet you think, "Well, to be a good friend, I should visit my friend in the hospital." You don't do it because it makes you feel good.

It actually makes you feel bad.

Once you know yourself, how do you use that information to be happier? Do you try to be more like yourself, or do you try to push back against some of who you are?

[laughs]

One of the things that's really surprised me is how much literally vocabulary matters and metaphors matter.

Like, it really matters if you practice piano or you play piano.

It matters if you network or you engage with your colleagues.

It matters, these subtle changes.

And, uh, and so I was trying to...

I was searching for a metaphor that I thought was more positive and kind of, but kind of captured the vibe that I wanted to associate with it.

[laughs]

Oh, yeah? Okay.

We'll see if I'm right.

Okay, so what this looks at sounds very boring, but ends up being super, super juicy, which is how you respond to expectations.

So we all face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations, which is like a work deadline, and inner expectations, which is like your own desire to get back into meditation.

So depending on whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations, that's what makes you an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel.

So upholders are the people who readily meet outer and inner expectations.

They meet the work deadline.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

So one of the things that more and more research is showing is that if, if you're feeling kind of overwhelmed by emotion, it can be very helpful to really try to articulate specifically what you feel.

So if you're feeling sad, you could say, "I'm feeling sad because I'm working so hard.

I don't have any time to do other things that are important to me, like see my friends or work out.

I'm feeling sad because I feel like the pain of the world is, is, um, bearing on me and I don't know what to do with my sadness.

I'm feeling sad because my b- I h- I know that it's time to say goodbye to a beloved pet, and I just can't bring myself to do it even though I know I should." There are so many reasons that you could be feeling sad, but if you just say, "I feel sad," it's like, well, then what would you do? Because with all of those things, there are very different things that you would do....

to, uh, to address that sadness.

Yeah.

[laughs] Yeah

... like, not like I curse like a sailor or anyway, but I just, I just wanna use more gentle words because I just, like you say, like, the words that we use influence our minds.

Um, another thing, um, to keep in mind, and this is just a really fun one, is the fluency heuristic, which is that if you say something in a very memorable way, like it rhymes or something like that, it's stickier in the brain, and, um, people, and it's more convincing to people.

So that's like, "If it bleeds, it leads." Like, that's the fluency heuristic.

And so that's just kind of a funny thing to keep in mind, like, if you're trying to come up with something that really, um, that's really persuasive, uh, to people, which is strangely, like, if it's just very sticky in the mind, it, it, it feels more correct.

And it's interesting that you say about putting yourself in a positive environment.

Um, one really interesting thing to do this is if you're having a difficult conversation, like, and of course you would wanna do this in the right environment, like, with, like, your sweetheart or something.

Yeah, yeah

[laughs]

One thing I struggle with, and maybe you guys do, too, 'cause it feels like maybe this is inherent, but maybe you don't, Becky.

Maybe this is what you are here to solve for the rest of us, which is the uncertainty of parenting.

I'm like, because I have a new puppy, and it's always like, "Should she eat now or later? And is she ready for a walk in 30 minutes or it should be 40 minutes? Are we developing this bad habit? Am I reinforcing something if I give her a treat now?" Like, it's all this uncertainty.

And I rem- with parenting, it was like that times 100.

What if I do this? What if I do that? What does this mean? Is this gonna last forever? Do I need to do research? Is this a problem? And I just felt like the decision fatigue-

[upbeat music]

Okay, well, so here's a side note question.

Find Simple Mills at your local grocery store.

Okay, now speaking of the question of understanding friends and maybe holding grace when people bring a different set of expectations or different understandings, okay, so my four tendencies framework, which is a personality framework that divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels, and it has to do with whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations.

Outer expectations like a work deadline.

Inner expectations like your own desire to keep a New Year's resolution.

And I'm just gonna go through this super fast.

If people wanna know more about it, they can just go to GretchenRubin.com/quiz and take the quiz and find out if they're an upholder, a questioner, obliger, or rebel.

Learn all about it.

Yes.

That's not me.

Right.

"That's not me." Yes.

And it's, and it's very often that you can just say, "I don't have, I don't have to tell you how to do your business," you know? (laughs) Um, another one that I really like, um...

This is very helpful, and, and, and when I was writing these, I wrote many aphorisms, or, th- or secrets of adulthood, which I realized were just sort of mere observations.

They were just my observations about the world.

They were things like, "The tulip is an empty flower." I really believed that the tulip is an empty flower.

And you probably already had made up your mind, you just needed to say it out loud and do it.

[laughs]

If there's some fresh insight, you're like, "That's probably wrong," because we've been studying this for thousands of years.

The greatest minds in history have been looking at this.

But people say it in a fresh way, or they have a new metaphor, or they say it in a way that particularly resonates with a particular person.

So a lot of times it's finding that fresh way to convey an insight.

It's creatively exciting.

You know, it's like writing a haiku or doing a thirty-minute sitcom.

Like, you're one of the only people I know who's writing aphorisms today, and so am I wrong? Are they kinda old school? You're bringing them back? Like, what's the goal?