Can you please help us understand what that means and distinguish it from a secular perspective of therapy?

Sure.

Pastoral counseling, historically, was the counseling that was done by pastors.

In the wake of the Second Vatican Council, we began to see a place for lay people in that space.

Specifically, pastoral counseling is mental health counseling, but it is specifically designed to help people of a particular faith respond to their problems in a way that enables them to live in a manner that's more consistent with that faith and live according to that faith's idea of what the human person should be and what their relationships should look like.

Another way I like to look at this too is have you ever found yourself in a situation where you were trying your best to do what you felt God wanted you to do or what your faith was calling you to do but you felt stuck and you were kind of caught in this place between either being faithful and miserable because you couldn't figure out how to make this thing work in a way that was actually working for you, or being seriously tempted to just sort of give up your faith and figure out what you had to do on your own and hope that God would understand.

Pastoral counseling enables people to live their faith in the unique circumstances they find themselves in.

And to do that and to do that well, what kind of training or background do pastoral counselors have that especially distinguishes them from, say, again, secular therapy?

Now, understanding that, uh, you, you've presented a certain ca- uh, characterization, a- an acronym that, that helps us to think rightly about mental health.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and this is, this is Dr. Siegel's work too, and he, he uses the acronym FACES, and that stands for flexible, adaptive, coherent, energized, and stable.

So when, when somebody is mentally healthy, tho- those, those five traits are present.

So flexible means that, you know, I, I'm able to look at a situation and, and creatively dis- determine the best way forward with something.

Um, adaptive means when I try to do those things and somebody throws a monkey wrench in it, I don't get all freaked out.

I'm able to work around it and adjust my approach and still, uh, pursue my goal.

How does our faith and spirituality factor into that conversation?

But at the same time, I'm really glad that there's empirical data to prove this.

Yes.

And there's actually a huge body of research that really supports the idea that couples who attend church regularly are happier in their marriages overall compared to couples who either attend church periodically or not at all.

And that's true on every level.

The couples who attend church regularly tend to communicate better.

They tend to have more satisfying intimate physical intimacy.

and overall are just more stable.

And that tends to lend to why the marriages are, as the report says, twice as likely to be very happy compared to secular peers.

Right

... those are questions you need to be bringing to God.

Um, be- because we can't answer for God, right? And, and, and inevitably when we try to answer for God, we, we end up failing miserably.

But, but the most important thing we can do, especially with somebody who, who isn't churched, who doesn't have a relationship with God, who- but who somehow is angry with God, um, to understand that as, as the Holy Spirit saying, "I want him to, I want him to bring that anger to me." You know? So, so the best thing you can do is, is invite him.

Whether he'll do it or not is up to him, but, but it's to invite him to say, "Lord, I, I'm angry with you.

I, I'm furious.

How dare you do this to me? How dare you take this, this person away from me?" I...

It's obvious

So let's frame the issue here based on what are some of the underlying problems that pertain to couple conflict?

well you know i i would say that with it to begin with most of us learn how to deal with relationship conflict uh... from the way we were disciplined as kids that the the approach their parents took to correcting our behavior correcting offenses tends to write a script for us for how we deal with our spouse when they upset us or offend us and a lot of times we learn some kind of unhealthy ways of dealing with those things i think we even just put it on perspective things start to snap into focus because of course we can't punish our spouse for various offenses.

But a lot of times we do try, and when we do, we get in trouble.

So we recommend an approach to discipline called discipleship discipline, which is rooted in the teachings of St. John Bosco.

And that basically has parents helping their children identify what they were trying to do, what the intention was behind the offensive or inappropriate behavior, and then working with the child to teach them healthier ways to express those intentions or meet those needs.

In adulthood, we call that same approach compassionate problem resolution, CPR, where we can restart the heart of your marriage and your relationship.

And the idea is the same.

If you could dive a little deeper into just how entrenched that can be and from there, just steps to overcome that.

Okay.

What you're talking about is called scruples.

So, yeah.

No, I hear what you're saying.

So, what you're talking about is what's called scruples.

So, guilt, healthy guilt... is the loving conviction of the Holy Spirit.

And when I say that, when I say conviction, I don't mean like convicted like a prisoner.

But on the other hand, I was wondering, is that what is happening if I offer up my suffering to someone else, and even if it means delaying that joy until after this life?

You know, Greg, I spent too much time thinking about this, and now I'm wondering if I might be a little scrupulous about the conversation itself.

And that's possible, of course.

So let's talk about the difference between scrupulosity and guilt.

And you know, Because there is a healthy sense of guilt.

And guilt can actually be a really important part of living a healthy and abundant life.

But it can also cause problems for us if that guilt becomes scruples.

And the difference is this.

I invite you to speak a little more into that.

What are the parameters here? Yeah.

Sure.

And let me just offer people the way to download the e-book for free is if they go to catholiccounselors.com slash PPD.

So catholiccounselors.com slash PPD.

You can download this e-book for free for yourself or anyone who is struggling with this or loves somebody who is.

But in terms of this, I think one of the questions that a lot of moms have is, well, how do I know if I really have postpartum depression? And if you're asking that question, you know, if you're saying, well, maybe it's not it's not.

Yeah, I don't I don't feel like I'd like to feel, but it's not that bad.

Can you just share about that so that people have a little holistic view about preparing themselves?

Yeah.

I become overwhelmed, I don't know how to handle these big feelings or this situation that I'm in, I don't know what to do, and so I melt down.

Um, where we get it wrong as parents is we, we treat that- Temper tantrum as a behavioral problem, as, as a discipline, as you...

Shame on you for losing control.

As opposed to recognizing, no, you know, the child, especially the child under six, doesn't have the, the, the, the physiological, neurological capacity for calming themselves down.

I mean, think about what does it take for us to calm down when we feel overwhelmed, right? We need to be able to kind of focus on our, getting our bodies under control.

We need to kinda talk to ourself.

Okay

That's surprising to hear.

Well, I mean, you know, it's funny that you say that because it shouldn't be surprising, but it is.

It catches us off guard.

Right? You know, a little Nutella majesty has a temper tantrum, and we're just like, oh my gosh, how dare you? Where did this come from? And so we think, well, we'll take away a privilege, or we'll take away the phone, or we'll let them do whatever, and that will fix it.

Unfortunately, we have to remember that teaching good behavior and teaching emotional management are skills, that have to be taught, just like algebra.

So for example, if your child was struggling with an algebra problem, you wouldn't take away their phone to teach them algebra.

You'd walk them through the algebra problem.

when it happened,

If it contains that, that's maybe, what, 10% and most? It's a lot more than that.

Yeah, and that might come as a surprise to a lot of people who've really encountered the theology of the body, either as a teaching on sexuality or how to teach chastity to kids.

And those are certainly very appropriate applications of the theology of the body.

And St. John Paul talks a lot about sexuality and the relationship between men and women in the theology of the body.

But it is much, much broader than that.

And most people haven't even begun to to untap what the real value of the theology of the body is.

And I would say there are two things that most people don't realize.

For parents listening right now, and for young people as well listening right now, in terms of trying to get their feet wet into the theology of the body, especially for the sake of living a flourishing marriage and family life, what ought they to do, Greg?

You know, people like you and your bride are helping bring that spiritual corrective to where the avenue has gone astray.

Yes, thank you for that.

And I think that's a big focus of our work.

How do we interpret the empirical insights from contemporary counseling psychology through the lens of faith so that people don't feel like they have to betray their faith and beliefs and values to become mentally healthy? because you don't um in fact there's a lot of overlap between what the science with the psychological sciences say about what leads to a healthy functioning person and relationship and what the catholic church teaches about uh the same uh and so a lot of our our work is really guided by saint john paul's theology of the body which saint john paul said was his attempt to promote a you know a comprehensive view of the person like what does it mean to be a flourishing human person in healthy holy relationships and a lot of the actually all of it we've not run into a case where it's not, is supported directly by psychological science and research.

And so it's our job as Catholic counselors and my team at CatholicCounselors.com to really interpret that information through that lens of faith so that we can give people the best of both worlds.

Going back to this study for a second, the study that you mentioned found that in a representative sample of almost 1,600 Catholics, 69% report chronic fatigue, 66% struggle with sleep, 55% have recently felt hopeless about something.

86% say that faith is central to their lives, but up to a third of Catholics have even thought about self-harm in the last few months.

So we're seeing a similar pattern happen within the church, Can you please comment on how, therefore, the Catholic Institutional Church needs to have a better response to this?

And before we talk about a proper, more virtuous way of dealing with the issue, I wonder if you could also share with us how we got here and what are some of the ways in which this is manifesting today?

Well, I think social media plays a big role in it.

Everybody's an expert on TikTok and Instagram.

And it's hard to know who to listen to, right? And so people throw out a lot of really interesting ideas or things that sort of sound like, well, maybe that is my kid.

And as I was saying, because we have a greater sensitivity and an openness to mental health issues, I don't want to ignore warning signs that there might be something seriously wrong with my child.

And so I want to get them the help that they need early.

And I think that's a very good impulse.

So share with our parents listening right now some of the more common things that will result in, let's just say, undesirable or not ideal child behavior, and therefore the proper common remedies for these.

So why are many parents becoming estranged from their adult children today, and what is behind the no contact phenomenon?

Yeah, and it has grown.

I would say that about 16% of adults are currently estranged from a parent.

It's more likely for a dad to be estranged from his kids than a mom.

About 26% of young adults report being estranged from a father and only about 6% from moms.

But I think the thing, there are lots of things driving it, but I think that on the one hand, People have become more aware of mental health issues and the need for healthy boundaries in relationships.

On the other hand, I think it's one of those situations where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

So how can the children and also the adults figure this out in terms of not having that extreme severity of a break?

[laughs]

And things that he says are inconceivable, um, actually keep happening.

And so eventually, Andre the Giant says, "I don't think that word means what you think it means." Well, the same thing is true about marriage.

You know, when people use the word marriage to describe a lot of different things, uh, and, and they don't necessarily mean the same thing.

And actually, we talk about this in For Better Forever, where, you know, even, even heterosexual couples don't necessarily mean the same thing about marriage, uh, that, that, for example, Catholic couples do.

You know, so for example, we, we, in that very first chapter in For Better Forever, I describe going to the marriage store and looking on the shelf and seeing lots of different marriage-type products, everything from cohabitation to all the way up to Catholic marriage.

And I talk about the difference in those types of relationships.

Okay, go ahead.

Mm-hmm.

When I encounter a difference in somebody, whether that's a difference in interest, or a difference in their values, or a difference in their political ideology or the way they think, i- in, in order for...

Uh, my natural reaction to that is to, to see that difference as a threat, and so I condemn it.

I don't, I don't relate to that.

I don't understand it.

It's, it's gotta be bad.

Whereas if I can approach it with curiosity, I don't have to accept it as good or true or beautiful even.

It's not like these are areas that you can't grow in, and there are certain acts of the will that you can make to ste- to take steps in that direction.

So when you say faithful Catholics, you're meaning Catholics who not only attend mass, but also practice it in their daily lives? Or how are you defining? Well, so

it's, well, yeah, so we actually had two different metrics.

So first, the Attending mass weekly if they were married with their own spouse and children, because weekly mass attendance is only about 15 percent of Catholics.

So that's a significant number right there.

But then secondly, we also administered an objective measure of the religious commitment inventory.

which specifically looked at how much faith impacted daily life and decisions.

And overall, the families, both the parents and the adult children who responded, scored in the top end of the Religious Commitment Inventory Survey.

But you have to think, how can I be self-donative and support my adult children becoming spouses and parents so that they feel loved and supported by us?

But to think of it as a ministry is a very intentional Catholic way of looking at it.

It really is, and I think this is something that we as a church need to do a better job of emphasizing to people.

Because the whole point of marriage, right, is to be the tip of the spear of the new evangelization, if you will.

So this was an insight that St. John Paul had, but every pope since him has affirmed it.

The idea that, you know, how do you evangelize a world where words don't matter and truth doesn't exist? It can't be what we say.

It's not just about the words we say.

It's about the love that we live.

The world doesn't have that outside of the Catholic sphere, right?

Okay.

So, so you're, you're...

So the b- way we, the way we give ourselves to God is through others, right? So let's, let's for, so for the sake of argument imagine that, that God gave you your wife and kids not just because He has a warped sense of humor, but, but also because w- He gave them certain needs.

And by you responding generously to their needs i- in ways that, that a- allow you to meet your needs too, um, you are actually responding to the voice of God inviting you to grow in ways that you'd never would've grown if it had, if He hadn't given you those people, right? So you respond to God speaking to you through the needs of your wife and children, and, and you learn to, to lean into the grace that you're receiving because of your, your renewed spiritual life, and asking God, "Help me be the husband and father that my wife and kids need me to be.

Teach me how to love them the way You want me to love them.

Teach me how to love them the way You love them, the way you love me." And, and then you listen to how He's speaking to you through their needs a- and you, you attend to them in ways that you maybe didn't have the courage to do before.

Because the one thing that we all love more than our spouse and our kids is our own comfort zone, right? I love my...

Perfect.

Mm-hmm.

"We did all the things, and it's free will." Um, and of course that's true.

There's, there's no silver bullet.

Uh, there's no guarantee that we can raise, uh, faithful kids.

But we thought there had to be better answers than that.

Um, and that's why we, we did the study, um, through, uh, the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University, where we looked at families who successfully raised all of their kids to a faithful adulthood, and, and also had, um, kind of uncommonly close family relationships.

Um, and we, we found that these families had 12 habits in common, that if you boil it all down, allowed the children raised in these households to experience the faith as the source of the warmth in their homes growing up.

Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm.

You know? And, um, my mom, uh, noticed that, uh, the other parents that were there were leaving their kids at home, and she went to talk to our, uh, leader and say, "You know, this should be something that brings families together." You know, uh, and he said, "Great.

Next week maybe you can have something for the kids." Uh, [laughs] so she started a children's ministry-

Yeah, it is.

But he was saying, "You know, I, I, I went home that night and I really wanted to do what you said, and so I wanted to give my daughter a hug," and she, she, she startled and she said, "What, what, what are you doing?" And I said, "Well, I would like to give you a hug." And he...

And he...

And she looked at me kinda funny and, and she, she, she, she tur- ...

She was getting ready for school.

So what does it mean, uh, when, when you say that marriage is sacred? Well, and, and maybe first, like, what does sacredness mean, and how does that apply to marriage?

Well, sure.

So, so the id- so, uh, Thomas Aquinas would say that the, uh, that sacredness, something that was sacred, was something that's set apart for God.

And so the, the point of, of...

The idea is, of course, that, that marriage somehow sets us, as husband and wife, apart, uh, for, for a divine purpose, which is, of course, to, to learn how to love each other the way God is calling us to love.

You know, I, I love, I love my...

I have lots of love in my heart for my wife, but I don't have the first clue how to love her the way that's actually loving, and I certainly don't know how to love her in a way that, that, that, that God wants me to love her, right? And so we come to church to say that I believe this is the place that can teach me how to love her the way God wants me to, or how to love me the way God wants her to love me.

Okay.

Sure

...

I have to avoid all the different things that I'm afraid of.

So a, a, a better stra- and it, it might, this might be a situation where y- you know, you and/or he both wanna t- talk to a counselor to try to, you know, get through this all together.

But let me just offer some, uh, kind of first aid strategies here.

Um, the best way to approach it is with anxiety, a lot of "what if" messages go through my head.

You know, what if the bug lands on me? What if I get stung? What if, you know, what, what, what if the, the bully attacks me? What if this? A nice way to kind of think about it is "even if." To ta- turn that "what if" into "even if." So even if the bug lands on me, what could I do? You know, even if I got stung, how could I respond? Even if that per- I run into that bully someplace, how would I handle that? And you actually kind of think through and even rehearse, like role play the situation, where maybe you pretend to be the bully and you're, and you're coaching your son through the tone of voice and the posture that he should have.

... was all about.

And so what do you do? Is there healing for marital relationships that have been years and years strained, you know, difficult?

Yeah, absolutely.

And of course, you know, you have to recognize that, you know, being in that rut, there's going to be a certain level of resistance to change, a certain level of suspicion about the possibility of change.

But where you have at least one person who is interested in changing, then there is the hope of that.

And I think that with Grace, certainly anything is possible.

And I think the best place to start is by going to your partner and saying, you know, look, I love you and I realize that we've gotten into a rut and I'd really like to change our relationship for the better for both of us.

What would that look like for you? And really just be opening that conversation.

It's like, why are you so passionate about, like, church or god why aren't you paying as much attention to me that's that's if i were trying to frame this from her perspective

And then there's been two or three occasions where he's run out of money and he's used debit cards that belong to his grandparents or that he grabbed for a certain way and he runs up their card.

Okay.

All right.

So you said you don't want to be cruel, and then sometimes setting these boundaries can feel kind of cruel.

Here's how I would suggest setting it, and you're kind of doing this – But I would say, all right, look, you can stay here as long as you are doing X, Y, and Z.

So, for example, as long as you are going to an AA group, right, as long as you are going to some kind of drug and alcohol counseling, as long as you are, you know, maintaining your sobriety, as long as, you know, whatever, certain standards, and also things that you need to do to contribute to the household, right? You can be here as long as you can do those things.

Now, it's your choice.

So I think...