But this is also something that Steven talked about, that so many physicians, especially younger physicians, you know, interns, residents who are new in their career, have this idea, as you said, that litigation is the boogeyman, that they're so terrified of this black box, that, "Keep it away from me, I don't wanna do it." And they really do feel like they will have no life if that happens to them.

Yeah.

I've met so many doctors who are being sued, and they say to me, like, "Well, my plan was to practice until I got sued, and then I was gonna quit." And it doesn't really work like that, and even if you quit, the lawsuit's still there, so [chuckles] it's not really the best plan, I would say.

But none of us were taught how to contend with it.

And the, the reason I invited my residents to trial we- was because by then I'd started educating about it.

I'd started the background work for the podcast.

I didn't release any episodes until 2019, but I knew what it was that I wanted to be doing, and I'd already done a bunch of interviews for it in advance of that.

Yeah.

was like five years out of

residency.

And I saw a patient.

It was very confusing to me.

I didn't know what was wrong with her.

I paid a lot of attention, though.

I was not asleep at the wheel in any way.

How do you help doctors navigate that?

Right

... suffering with it, and this is just one more stressor for the physician who's like, "Oh my gosh.

Now my kids think I'm some sort of..." Or they're worried, or they have to defend me at school or whatever, right? This is really difficult.

And on the plaintiff side, honestly, nothing's holding them back.

I mean, their lawyer eventually will tell them, "Cut that out," but this person did not for a long time.

There may be news coverage about the thing, about the allegations if the allegations were severe.

These are all highly distressing things and very difficult for families to navigate.

Yeah