So why don't you tell us a bit about kind of where, you know, you start, you, you kind of explained how you started in social work, but you want, because it, because it was a practitioner only license, all this, but how did you kind of meander all the way through to behavior analysis?

Well, actually, when I went into undergrad, I was interested and it started off in an experimental psychology program, the traditional experimental psychology.

And I frankly hated it because it seemed to I wasn't into the black box stuff.

You know, things go in and then there's this thing that happens and then this comes up.

Made no sense to me.

But in my program at Michigan State, anybody getting the bachelor of science degree had to take like a rat lab.

our pigeon lab, I should say.

And I want to ask you, how did you come across SEVA, number one? And what was the thing that you said, you know what, I really want to be part of this? Since you have so much knowledge and experience in a lot of fields.