How did you become a, a professional backgammon player in, in the first place? I mean, was that a, a viable career option in the '80s?

There, there wasn't a whole lot of money in it, but it was a period of kind of an explosion in, in backgammon.

There were ... you know, there was a fair amount of press about it and you had, uh, Hugh Hefner playing and, and, uh, you know, some prominent names, and Lucille Ball.

You know, that ...

It was kind of a default thing in that I, I was ...

I started playing when I was in high school-Uh, I was better than the kids that I was playing with, uh, only really because I, I worked on it.

You know, I bought books and I took it seriously.

Who were the players you were, like, learning from and emulating?