But I think the, the creative businesses, and I use that term very specifically, that win in the next three, five years and beyond will be those that recognize that actually the more distance you create between those two sets of skills, the, the less effective and brilliant your work is gonna be, whichever side of that fence you sit on.

Yeah, one of the reasons I'm actually very excited, uh, to read Marcus' book, and I'm not just saying this 'cause he's my friend, you know, when you ask the question about the relationships between creative agencies and media agencies, you're asking a question about perspective, power, incentive structure.

Like, every system is perfectly designed for the results that it's getting.

It's one of my favorite maxims in organizational psychology.

And so I think most people, whether you're on the media side or the creative side, have had amazing partnership experiences, and you've had terrible partnership experiences, and it often comes down to those things.

If the creative agency, you know, is incented on, on one thing and the media agency is incented on another, that might be a tough relationship.

If there's a power struggle between who's driving, like, who's leading the IAT and who's supporting, that impacts the relationship.

It's the intimacy that allows us to work better together inside the walls of our organization and with people outside the organization.