Doug Graham

And I appreciate the left and some of the leftist media, RNZ maybe, may not appreciate that, but the bottom line is that is the case.

Because unlike Jim Boulder and Doug Graham, who made the case for actually treaty settlements, and people on both sides would say it wasn't enough or it was too much, and I get that, but they took the country with them.

And they failed to do that and they didn't do that and use their political capital in that way.

So I would say there was more division going into 23 than I see today.

And a lot of it you felt had been sorted, right? We had a working agreement and then these buggers get in and in the last three years it's burned everything.

Well, exactly, and I've lived through all these governments, but there did seem to be a kind of consensus on the way forward, especially when you saw people like Doug Graham doing work about the claims, and then also Chris Finlayson later.

It seemed to be we were all agreed that this was something important that we had to deal with going forward, and this seems to be completely throwing away decades of progress.

Decades, yes.