Doni, I do think, I mean, no one is surprised by how quickly this stuff spreads, but I think leading up to it and just seeing how it kind of shot up this weekend and then fell apart was even pretty remarkable.

Yeah, you mentioned it there.

I mean, I think it's the real rocket fuel to this is when you have the president of the United States mentioning this multiple times, both out at rallies, but also on his social media platforms.

And then, of course, the really important role of Elon Musk.

And I think one of the great unknowns in our very online political era right now is just how much Musk is manipulating the algorithm on X to push certain stories and narratives.

I mean, you had Alex Gibney, the documentary maker, on air last week.

He has a documentary out right now about Musk where they recount a story when in 2023, a few months after Musk took over X, he was at the Super Bowl.

He was literally at home recovering from the flu.

Those beliefs are pretty damn antiquated to me.

Absolutely, and I, I think this is the problem, right? It is that, it is, it is that these guys are normal.

Uh, and they, uh, present as it.

I mean, they present, they could be your son or your nephew or your brother, and then you get them talking about women, or you get them talking about Jews, and, you know, you see the ugliness.

And I think, you know, I think, like, if we really want to grapple with this situation, 'cause I talk to so many, you know, it's so many moms out there, uh, who, a- and dads who have, like, young teenage sons who are in the manosphere.

They know their sons are g- good kids, and they hope they're good people.

But, but like any teenager, sometimes they say some sort of messed up stuff.

Um, and, and, and so, you know, kind of getting back to the original purpose of Tony's video, Tony, what was it that drew these guys to becoming Groypers in the first place?

Donie?

Yeah, I mean, to Julie's point, I think we in media and as we're reporting and talking about this, because there's so much sort of the crazy stuff is tied up in this, uh, and the usual peddlers of misinformation, we can very kinda quickly shorthand this to the Epstein conspiracy theory.

Uh, and of course, (laughs) I mean, th- i- it's- it's not, right? I mean, th- there's plenty of unanswered questions and plenty of questions about why questions remain unanswered.

I mean, I- I sort of just view this as in- in sort of three buckets of- of interest, which is one, I mean, people, including myself, have a lot of interest in like, w- w- you know, what- what don't we know about this? Um, and- and what else was going on, and who else was involved? And then the step where we start to see in the- in the Trump world especially and in- in the MAGA sphere is that, you know, Epstein was very much part of the deep state and all that sort of stuff.

And again, that, you know, there's- there's parts of that.

Obviously he's connected to very, you know, uh, powerful individuals, but clearly it, in the MAGA sphere it veers into more, far more that it's a grander plot.

And then finally, and I think one of the reasons why this is really...

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But what we've done with Persuadable, um, this podcast, is sort of, I guess, my humble attempt at trying to put forth at least part of a solution, which is, it's not about society or politics.

It's about if you have a loved one who's coming to the kitchen table every night and is spouting, you know, more and more bizarre conspiracy theories, how you deal with that.

And we've spoken to some former cult members.

We've spoken to psychologists.

We've spoken to people who have been in the rabbit holes and got out.

Uh, and really what we found is, is the, the way to help most of these people is, is true empathy, which can be really, really difficult.

Are, are, are there common themes? Are there any uniting themes of the victims, as it were?

Yes.

... uh, uh, uh, expressing disgust at you.

Um, so this, you know, for as much and as, for as important and hugely important, of course, when it comes to government contracts and the price of Tesla stock and all the fallout that is gonna happen, uh, because of this feud that these two men are having, uh, you know, Musk really went there.

And, and that is perhaps why, why Trump chose to respond.

And they are now victims of their own conspiracy theories because there's no there there, and they're disappointing the conspiracy-minded people who haven't seen what...

It's, it's could be... (laughs) I mean, there, wh- you, there's a clip I saw of, of Alex Jones tonight that, that noted conspiracy theorist, uh, who is trying to wrap his head around, like 'cause these guys are normally so used of having good guy, bad guy.

Normally the bad guy's a Democrat or somebody who doesn't like Trump.

And now they are really trying to say, "Okay, well, what does the conspiracy theorist do when another conspiracy theorist blows up a conspiracy theory-"

What did you hear from people?

Yeah.

I mean, to M- Maggie's point, and this, when people sorta talk about this first, they think it sounds like a joke.

But actually, speaking to native Greenlanders, like, they, independent pe- they want to be independent from Denmark.

They have been, they, they very much view Denmark as a colonizer.

Independence is a very popular concept there.

However, uh, they are realistic about it.

... maybe just keep it on a military base?

Mm

... pretty clearly, uh, in Trump's first administration, which was to say, "Just blitz.

Blitz people with actions, with information, with misinformation.

Do so many things a day." And you know, he sort of spoke, uh, belittlingly of, of journalists and, and of newspapers to say, you know, "Journalists are stupid.

They can only focus on one thing at a time, so they'll, they'll focus on one thing, and, and you do everything else." But I think all of us, you know, the public, the electorate, can, can't take in so much of what is happening every single day.

So I think it's a pretty deliberate strategy.

I mean, I don't e- I, I briefly forgot until yesterday that Dan Bongino, who is this sort of shock-

[laughs] Yeah.