It's a real interesting take on Nixon as we-- I, I think there are many people who look at Nixon's presidency and his resignation and say what we've got going on right now as we speak is so much more exponentially worse than anything that we saw under Nixon.

No doubt about it.

And, you know, I, I mean, obviously, I mean, Nixon, at least, you know, many of the things that came out that we found out during the, during the Watergate scandal were revealed through, you know, very kind of, you know, whether it was the Watergate tapes or John Dean testifying before Congress or those kinds of things.

There were these sort of dramatic moments where it was revealed what was really going on.

With the Trump administration, it's just right out in the open.

They're doing it, bragging about it, talking about it [chuckles] every day.

And it's become, you know, rather commonplace, the kind of abuses of power and corruption that, that was shocking in the day of Richard Nixon.

Um, how important is it, given this attempt to rehabilitate Nixon and, uh, by extension to rehabilitate, uh, Donald Trump when he's gone in advance, uh, how important is it for the Democrats to really push hard for accountability, prosecutions, sanctions against all those who are complicit in violating the Constitution and direct attacks on democracy?

I think there are many people who look at Nixon's presidency and his resignation and say what we've got going on right now as we speak is so much more exponentially worse than anything that we saw under Nixon.

No doubt about it.

And, you know, I mean, obviously, I mean, Nixon at least.

Many of the things that came out that we found out during the Watergate scandal were revealed through very kind of – whether it was the Watergate tapes or John Dean testifying before Congress or those kinds of things.

There were these sort of dramatic moments where it was revealed what was really going on.

With the Trump administration, it's just right out in the open.

They're doing it, bragging about it, talking about it every day, and it's become rather commonplace.

So,

What, what's your sense of that?

Well, I, I think you're exactly right about that.

I mean, we're moving into this final phase here.

They haven't been able to move the dial in their direction in most of these polls, although it's still quite close in many of the races that we're, that we're looking at, and in places where we didn't expect to be even... where that the seats would even be in play.

Um, so I mean, it's good for Democrats.

I'm not trying to put a damper on anybody's [laughs] hopes here, but they are still close races, so I don't want to...

You know, none of us should get too complacent about what's going on.

I mean, the idea that Democratic primary voters are picking the wrong people in these, uh, elections, what's your perspective on that?

Right.

But, yeah, you know, when you think about it, Nicole, I mean, just think about what has happened.

I don't think – it's kind of interesting to me to look at that over this particular era.

I mean, there have been – You know, think about our parents and grandparents who went through the Great Depression and World War II.

I mean, now there's a period of, you know, very exciting and crazy turmoil that they went through.

But this last 20 years has really been something else.

I mean, we started off, I think, in reaction to what was going on with, you know, after 9-11 and the war in Iraq.

Yeah.

And I'm old enough to remember when Michael Moore did a satirical movie about, uh, uh, America, the attempt to sort of like gin up a-an invasion fervor against Canada and Donald Trump seems to have taken it as if it was like some type of, um, prescription.

[laughs] It's true.

And it-- I mean, when you say...

I mean, it's so absurd.

It is just incredibly absurd that Canada, which is our second largest trading partner, our closest friend on the planet, I mean, they're just, you know, we're...

It's Canada for God's sakes.

I mean, nobody, nobody hates Canada.

it does not work

Right.

Here's something peripherally that the polls are all bad.

And he just he doesn't believe that he believes Natalie or Natalie.

He calls his gives it a French accent.

I don't know what that's about.

But, you know, he he he believes what she's handing him because some paper.

Right.

Zelensky had the cards.

I

mean, well, I can't blame them for being cynical about us or thinking that we've gone over the top here.

But let me just say something else, though.

Throughout this whole period of Donald Trump absolutely turning the July 4th, 250th, you know, into a depraved pageant for him, starting with the reflecting pool.

Oh, my God.

There has been something else going on in our country, and that is the World Cup.

The World Cup, up until yesterday, was a joyous, generous affirmation of the world's people being able to come together in some kind of a common spirit.

And it's also part of what's making me sick, I think.

Yep.

There's never been anyone in the world who has been unable to take a loss, take a big L, than h- more unable to take a big L than him.

And so he is really stuck.

He does not know what to do.

He didn't expect this.

And I've read that he tells people that, you know, well, he can sell it as a victory if he does this.

But he's got these people on his shoulders, the Israeli pe- the Israel people, the, the Iran hawk people, the MAGA people, the, you know, the, the Democrats.

Yep

So, Gail, what are you seeing here develop within the Republican Party? And certainly go over some of the history, if you would, that I think is really instructive for people and that may not be familiar with it in understanding this major change that's taking place.

Well, absolutely.

I mean, I think it's really I think this is really a could be a turning point, something new and different.

And we've kind of been reaching towards something ever since the end of the Cold War for some kind of new alignment in America's stance as the guarantor of world security.

The idea of us being this, you know, the Pax Americana, the world's only superpower, all of that has really been in flux ever since then.

And, you know, that whole idea came out of World War II, obviously.

We came out the, you know, the only country standing, really, after all of that.

It seems like a time where the U.S. empire may be confronting limits because not only is that empire and its military footprint losing support, but people are seeing the consequences in their own wallets, right?

Mm-hmm

... uh, he won re-election.

He won election again.

And that showed him, and plenty of his followers, that he's infallible, that he is...

And that, and that has fed this megalomania of his.

And he's now at a point where he thinks he can spend half of his time babbling about his ballroom and granite and what marble it is, and, "Oh, look at the, the patio.

It's just like the one at... " You know, the Rose Garden's now like the patio at, you know, California Pizza Kitchen.

Yep.

... that in any state where Republicans control, they're gonna be able to curtail voting or shape it in, in whatever way they, they feel they need to, and this has federal implications when it comes to control over the House.

It sure does, and I'll tell you something.

I, I mean, I've always felt like, you know, sure, they'll, they'll try to do what they can to suppress voting.

They always do, and they'll probably go to greater lengths this time, even up to and including deploying National Guard troops or something like that.

I mean, they refused to rule that out, uh, the other day that, you know, well, you know, maybe we might...

Pete Hegseth, you know, suggesting, "Well, you know, Biden did that," which is not true.

He did not.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, uh, so, you know, we deci- I guess Trump, you know, uh, w-Emerging from his triumph in Venezuela, figured that he was now king of the world and could do anything he wanted.

So it is slightly different.

But the fact is, is that when the United States government wants a war, which they wanted in 2002 and 2003, and which apparently Donald Trump wanted now, they just do it.

And the people who are there to trying to do any kind of peace agreement, uh, doing any kind of mediation, they just, you know, they're either eliminated or they are marginalized or they are somehow, uh, taken out of the picture despite all the paeans to, "Oh, we're peace...

You know, we, we want peace," I mean, Trump, you know, doing his, his Nobel Peace Prize tour.

So, you know, this is, this is not a new thing.

No-

Yeah, I agree.

But, um, you know, but the, in this case, uh, you know, I felt like, like Robin had a good, had a good point.

And I asked Rick, I said, "Well, who do you think does this the be- you know, who does this? Who could I look to to see who is speaking in normal terms?" And he said, "Two people, one of which I agree with and the other one I don't." The, the one that I don't agree with, he said, he used Bernie as an example, and I think Bernie does a good job of talking about issues, but I don't think he sounds like a normal person.

I think he's kind of a, you know, a hectoring old guy who's kind of giving a, you know, lecturing people about, you know, "Why don't you understand what's going on here?" You know, and I don't know that that's that effective with the broad spectrum, but that, maybe that's just me.

The other person that he mentioned was AOC, who I think is brilliant in this way, and the minute I read that I went, "Well, of course.

She's the one who does this the best.

She's the one." Mom Dani does it, too.

We did it." And that's his-

They might do it in the next 10 months!

They might do it.

It's possible.

If they really see the handwriting on the wall, I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen, too.

Um, you know, they may have a little bit more of a difficult time.

It's possible they've got some people in there, like Chilis and Murkowski and some others, who maybe might balk a little bit at pushing through another Trump, uh, you know, Trump nominee.

But, boy, that's really thin reed to hang our, you know, our hopes on because who knows what they'll do? But the, the, the fact is, is that that's a very real possibility, that Trump will have packed the court with five of his own nominees by the time they're done.

Um-

Right.

...

the most...

I mean, it's the most horrific one I can think of in my lifetime, in terms of domestic policy.

I've never seen anything like this.

I mean, this is absolutely horrific.

And now, they're embarking, I don't know if you've...

Yeah.

What's your take on, on why they did this?

Well, that's n- there's no doubt about that, and it's not the first time.

I mean, we've obser- observed this over the years, that when there's something sort of unpopular with the Democratic base that needs to be done, they find a way for the people who are safest in that situation to, you know, they'll, they'll take the bullet and they'll do it in order to spare their brethren the pain of having to face their constituents with a vote that they, you know, wanted to take but, but would be unpopular.

So, that's exactly what happened.

I mean, it's obvious, right? I mean, you don't have only the resigning people and people who are up, uh, aren't up for re-election until 2030 all being the ones (laughs) to take a vote, and everybody else going, "Oh, no, I'm really upset and I'm not gonna do that." You know, uh, uh, clearly that was just, they were, they were taking the fall for it.

Um, and, of course Schumer was doing that.

I mean, they wanted to end the, the shutdown, as everybody did, but they were the ones who set this up as, you know, the, the battle of all battles on the Affordable Care Act.

And wow, what, what of these emails stuck, uh, I- we could probably talk about this for an hour and a half, but what, what struck you, uh, in the, uh, uh, uh, most, uh, poignantly in this?

Mm-hmm.

People who aren't paying a lot of attention, people who are just, they're going, "Wait a minute.

You know, what the hell is going on here?" And I think that some of that when, in terms of healthcare, has to do with what I'm calling the RFK effect.

The, what he's doing, I mean, this is no longer just about health insurance.

It's no longer about your bills.

It's the, you know, you like your kitchen table issues.

There's a kitchen table issue out there, uh, you know, called cancer research, pediatric, you know, um, cancer research.

(laughs)

But, but, but tell us on both sides of that story.

Okay, well, the Venezuela thing, I think people should start to pay attention to it, start reading up on it when it comes out.

You know, it's just been sort of in the periphery for the last month or so that there's something going on down there.

They deployed this rather large deployment of naval ships and all kinds of support to cruise just outside the Venezuelan waters, and this has been going on for the last few weeks.

And they, you know, there's already a bounty on the, uh, president of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro's head for $50 million.

The, the United States has put up a bounty on him, uh, captured and potentially killed.

And it's pretty clear there's something happening down there, let's just put it that way.

You can't do that." Um, I mean, it seems sort of crazy to me.

So, uh, Heather, like, give me your sense of, like, what, what, what interests me about this is, why are all the right-winger media people still pursuing this? Like, how come they haven't been able to get past this?

Well, I mean, d- I, I don't know what to make of the Harry Enten stuff.

Uh, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Not because I don't...

We, I mean, we've seen this before.

When, when Bill Clinton, um, was under, you know, uh, the s- scrutiny for, over the Monica Lewinsky thing, his poll ratings went up.

Um, they went up substantially.

Yep.

We didn't have anything about this but...

"Yeah, we just, we can't, you know, nothing we can do about it.

That's just how this works, sorry guys." Um, and it's, you know, it's an absolute nightmare, but think about this.

This is the, what the Republicans have been wanting to do for as long as I can remember, and you know, people keep going on and on and on about how, "Oh, you know, this is such political suicide and why, you know, why are they doing this? And this is terrible.

Why would they take this chance?" And, uh, you know, this is the new modern Republican Party, which is, "We're going to do everything we ever wanted to do and just tell everybody else to just pound sand." They don't care if the public doesn't like it, they don't care if their own voters don't like it, because they're getting away with everything.

And if Mitch McConnell said it, he said it right out, in, in the meeting, they're all going, "Well, what are we going to do? Our constituents, blah, blah, blah." And he said, "They'll get over it." And he's probably right.

People ha- you know, they're worried about, you know, the price of eggs and they don't care.

John Roberts-

You know, completely less scary, but a little bit less scary because, you know, you could actually run, somebody could run against Elon Musk, uh, on some level and that really, I think, undermined his power with the administration.

For sure.

There's no doubt about it.

And I've- I- actually, it's been a big part of what I've been writing about, in that his influence in the Republican Party and in the administration was massively diminished by that performance that he put on in Wisconsin.

And, you know, consider the fact that yesterday Trump brought up the Pennsylvania thing.

You know, Elon's been running around saying from the very beginning that he got- he won Pennsylvania for Trump and therefore won the presidency, and it's been obviously galling Trump (laughs) to hear that, and apparently Susie Wiles, because Trump referenced her in this- in- in his comments, Susie Wiles has been saying, "No, that's not true." He didn't- he wasn't the, you know, the defining factor in that race in Pennsylvania.

Trump brought that up yesterday.

Yep.

... what do you make of the arrogance here, especially that he was functioning as a special government employee and still expected, like, kingmaker-level influence? It seems like this is not gonna go away, and this, this feud? Uh, if Trump takes the bait and fights back, I'm investing in popcorn, Heather.

(laughs) Oh, me too.

Me too 'cause this is what...

I mean, we've all been sort of waiting to see how this was gonna play out.

None of it really made much sense.

The idea that Musk can tr- you know, first of all, Trump doesn't want anybody around who takes his thunder, right? I mean, he doesn't really want that.

He's, he's the star, and, you know, Mu- he didn't want really Musk to, to be doing that, and he tried to keep him sort of...

Exactly.

So-

Well, uh, yeah, I mean, look at what this British deal that they just did with the UK yesterday.

It's not a deal.

I mean, noth- nothing happened other than he lifted the, the car manufacturing (laughs) stuff.

Actually made it, you know, less g- made American, um, car manufacturers less competitive.

But it's a 10% tariff that's l- that's s- still on all the British goods, and that was something that existed, you know, at, on April s- on Liberation Day.

He put a 10% tariff across the board, and they didn't lift that, and apparently, they're not going to.

Yep.

Yes.

... that we have had since World War II about how the world was organized, and he didn't understand it.

He didn't know what it was, so he was just gonna wreck it.

And he tried in the first term, but he couldn't really get it done.

This time, he's just doing it.

I mean, he's really YOLO as far as I can tell.

You know, he is just going for it, and I think that that is what's happening here.

I want to talk about the foreign policy, but does the stupidity itself embolden authoritarian regimes?

Uh, talk about that because I think, like we, I don't know if we're in, we are a fascist nation, but we are getting, uh, w- the, I, this conversation, it's, it's irresponsible not to have this conversation anymore.

Yeah.

I think so.

I mean, we're perilously close.

Um, that, the institutions actually s- ha- have, I have to admit, I mean, I'm, I'm surprised.

I thought that, but, you know, I am not sure why because we watched the entire Republican Party turn into nothing more than the political arm of Donald Trump's MAGA movement, and they have no institutional integrity whatsoever.

The Senate, the, the majority in the Senate and the House, they, they have no sense of their own prerogatives under the Constitution.

Yep.