So how did you and your colleagues look at this and decide, well, we need a single European exam? And how did this partnership with UK Royal Colleges turn the original European certificate in nephrology into the EZNF we have today?

OK, thanks, Hugo.

Well, I first became involved in the UEMS around about 2010.

And when I looked at matters then in association with Professor Kanata and Dia, we saw that there were very few developments in our section going on.

So we decided to do something fruitful, set up a number of projects with a focus on areas that would assist with harmonisation of training across Europe, which, as you know, is a key focus of the UEMS.

As you stated, the duration of training, the type of training across Europe varies quite significantly from country to country.

So it's quite a challenge, really, and I suppose still a work in progress.

with that because for many it's not their first language.

I think that's kind of the brilliance of poker is that there are so many people from so many different walks of life, an incredibly diverse bunch of people.

You sit down at a poker table, you're probably gonna meet eight very different people at the table.

And if you have a conversation, you open up and you talk to them, I suppose like what has been a life's mission for me with the podcast in a way has been like, okay, they're so different.

What unites them? What's the thing that makes us join together? Obviously it's playing the game, but is it more than that? Like, is it that we're all like on the periphery of society? Is it that we're all degenerates deep down? Is it that we're all fascinated by strategy and games? Because I think you're just always on the search for those kinds of things that connect us.

as a community of people when we are so very different.

I got into poker a little bit like a lot of people my age.

Did any of your friends and family think you were mad when you turned around one day and said you were going to be a poker player?

Everyone pretty much in my life frowned upon my decision to become a poker player.