Viral storyline, yeah.

And so, you know, we want to focus more on changing the odds and less on people who managed to operate within systems that weren't designed with that in mind, right? And so I see it as two different things, kind of the tokenism inspiration porn thing, which is like, Look how cute this employment opportunity is or look how cute this or inspiring this story is that even though this person is non-speaking or, you know, has certain access needs.

barriers that they managed to blah or we do you know we're clapping for the people who give them the opportunity more than we're celebrating their actual strengths and then on the other side of that is more of like the Haley narrative which is and I've been a friend of Haley Moss's for a long time which is That whole superpower thing.

And what I say in the book is there's a doodle of a woman who's kind of based on Haley because we've had a lot of these conversations, but it's it's someone with a cape on their back, but it's attached to a flagpole.

And it says a cape you didn't ask for is a red flag.

Right.

So.

I want to hear how did you unlearn? What sparked it?

What becomes possible for humanity?

Well, I go back to the healing and the new consciousness that's coming through.

I think, you know, a big part of our work has been the Write Your Book in a Week book writing intensives where people join us in a very ritualistic ceremonial type container to focus on their book for a week.

And the creative vortex that comes through for people in that space is, there's no other way to put it other than supernatural.

And so in a hundred years from now, I would imagine that this method, so to speak, of dedicating a week to channeling and bringing through a message, I can only imagine the incredibleness that would be brought through.

I mean, I'm even, I'm thinking intergalactic levels of knowledge being brought through through I'm seeing people going to really special places in the world, like, you know, the, where the ley lines are, where the volcanoes were, where just, you know, there's so many special places on the earth that hold a certain charge.

And I think our authors in a hundred years from now, uh, We would have essentially gone to all those places, brought through the answers and here's the greater mission is that if great, if we can help great people with these great conscious, this great consciousness to share that.

What kind of effect do you think that would have if we were seeing that kind of culture or wisdom in

And how did the first project lead to the more ambitious, um, English and Scottish Popular Ballads s- series?

Well, he found-- he seems to have found that he really enjoyed working-- well, working with, you know, reading and putting into order the three hundred and sixty folk ballads in those first eight volumes.

And it was a contentious decision anyway to include largely anonymous folk ballads in a collection of work of the great British poets.

You know, you think, you know, Spencer, Shakespeare, you don't think, you know, some unknown minstrel three hundred years ago trying to earn a copper.

So that in itself is contentious, but he found that, I mean, it just-- that part of the project just fascinated him.

And he decided that he wanted to work more with it, but he didn't just want to collate another collection of ballads.

He wanted to find the story of every single ballad.

... descendants of those who'd stayed on the island?

Tell us a little bit about Percy Grainger, 'cause he was also a bit of a composer or at least a, a formal highfalutin music guy.

I think a little bit more than quite.

I mean, he was a very good composer and a very fairly major one.

Um, what's interesting is if you look at the people who were so, so influential on the early development of the Child Ballads, Child himself was an American, Henry Burr was a Canadian, and Percy Grainger was an Australian.

Um, he was in England studying music and was, you know, attending lectures and things, and he ran into some people who were heading up to Norfolk, which is on the eastern side of the country as you look at it, the big lump that sticks out on the right-hand side.

And, um, they were going up to record some local singers, and he was like, "Oh, can I come along, please?" And they were like, "Yeah, you can be our pianist." So he trots along with them, and he sits there, and he takes notes.

And at this point, nobody in England that we know of was recording with wax cylinder.

Like, um, Child Ballad number two, The Elfin Knight, w- how far back does, do its roots go, and how do we know?

And what are the Child Ballads? [laughs]

The Child...

Oh, okay.

[laughs] Yes, the million-dollar question.

The Child Ballads are...

Okay, there was a Harvard professor named Francis J.

Child who had published a huge, like dozens of volumes of the English poets, and, you know, he would just go through, and anything he could find by any English poet went into this series.

[laughs]

And this is a small group of the European Doctors Orchestra that's come to Hare Island.

Yeah, so I'm also lucky in that I have a cottage on Hare Island, which is a little island off the southwest tip of Ireland and is an absolute paradise.

It is more of a paradise on a sunny day than a wet day, but it's always gorgeous.

And I had the idea a few years ago that it'd be lovely to have some chamber music on the island and to play stuff that had never been heard in this place before.

so I invited friends from the Irish Doctors Orchestra, European Doctors Orchestra and friends of theirs and mine who aren't medical to come and play and we play for a week mostly for ourselves and then we give a couple of concerts either on Hare Island or on Shurkin or in Baltimore and Cape Clear we hope to go to next year.

So it's just a bit of fun but it brings some other people to the island who absolutely love it and it brings some different sort of music to the island and the people that come here and love it as well.

Let's talk a little bit about the links between medicine and creativity.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And so a lot of our training is just to try to give them these aha moments of a confession might seem really reliable and truthful on its surface, but when you dig into how did we get there, maybe you should investigate a little bit, little bit further.

Okay.

One is understand investigators do have a difficult job, right? You have to try to sit across from somebody, and you have a lot of pressure from the community, from representing the victim, for public safety.

How do I get reliable information? What are the tools?

Mm-hmm.

Um, yeah, my personal experience was the first exposure I had to kind of wrongful convictions and false confessions was thanks to media and platforms like yours.

Um, learned about Brendan Dassey's case from making a murderer and I watched it and thought, I mean, this, I was kind of sickened by the interrogation and got a youthful person with some vulnerabilities.

And when I saw the interview and the interrogation, I thought, As somebody who represents a leading training firm, we have to stand up and say something because if we don't, we're basically just kind of condoning and endorsing that.

And so from there, I started to learn more about what is the social science behind this? Why every time we look at a false confession case, does it contain the same elements each time? We should learn from that.

And so since then and over the last decade plus, we've done a great job working with groups like the Innocence Center and our training organization to make sure that we're educating investigators because they do want to do it the right way.

What are some of those elements, the common elements? I think one of what we know, one of the most common contributors to a false confession is the use of what's called the false evidence ploy, or when an investigator lies about evidence or maybe even lies about potential consequences.

it's not mandated that police departments learn better tactics, correct? So how do you convince them or how do you get in there and say, okay, you guys need this training because what you're doing isn't ethical or how do you convince them that they need to do that?