What is it about it that you don't want to touch with a barge pole? Is it just too tough?

Now, we've put out a full statement on our position on gene tech.

And so there's three parts of that.

The first is that we don't agree with the existing bill.

We think that's basically been done to New Zealanders and not with New Zealanders.

This is a really tough, divisive topic in our country.

And we actually need to have a good, slow, consultative, deliberative process so that instead of a bill just getting written and then in a couple of months when government changes or a couple of years when government changes, it gets rewritten and we start again.

So what do you actually mean?

I think it's clear now.

Yeah, but insinuating that no new taxes is the only way forward suggests that we've got a perfect tax system as we do.

We don't because 200 young Kiwis are leaving the country.

We should be open-minded about how we have set up our tax system.

Having mature conversations about tax is okay.

When it comes to tax and when it comes to capital gains on farm, that is the elephant in the room that's keeping young farmers off the land.

We project that with the land value tax, it would bring land prices down about 10 or 15 percent.

Certainty to invest in the things that they know they want to invest in but are too scared to because of the flip-flopping every time there's a change in government.

Please welcome Daniel Ebb.

Kia ora to everyone.

There's two types of conversations I generally have with farmers.

The first one is about regulation.

Those are generally quite angry conversations.

They descend into a blame game quite quickly and generally those conversations don't go anywhere.

But then the second conversation I often have with farmers is about innovation and I like these ones the most because generally both of our eyes light up and they become really good conversations and often they extend to a second cup of tea or another beer.

What's your message to them? My message to them is that...

Do you think a tax is the way to go, though, to achieve there? And why not look into promoting, you know, like equity partnerships and all of those opportunities? Because, I mean, a tax, it's not, it's got a bit of a, yeah, it's not great.

No, I hear you.

I get you.

And listen, it's not about just a tax.

So the tax reset itself sits alongside a policy we've released a couple of weeks ago called the Breakthrough Economy.

And I'd really encourage farmers to have a look at it.

And so you're absolutely right.

The commerce, you know, beefed up Comcom, though, to look into supermarkets surely would make a bit of a difference there.

So essentially taxing land, is that going to put enormous pressure on family businesses in essence?

Fair call.

I think farmers are right to apply some scrutiny to land value tax and anything that looks like an additional cost to the business.

Farming is tough and it's often a low margin operation, but I think it's important to get a couple of facts straight about the land value tax.

So on our projections, we think that farmers farming sort of at or below the national average farm sale price for around sort of that $6 to $7 million figure are not going to see significant tax changes.

It's because there is a significantly lower rate that's applied to rural land.

We've created some carve-outs for privately held conservation land.

Why would they... you know, consider voting for opportunity if that was their reality?

So essentially taxing land, is that going to put enormous pressure on family businesses in essence?

Fair call.

I think farmers are right to apply some scrutiny to land value tax and anything that looks like an additional cost to the business.

Farming is tough and it's often a low margin operation, but I think it's important to get a couple of facts straight about the land value tax.

So on our projections, we think that farmers farming sort of at or below the national average farm sale price for around sort of that $6 to $7 million figure are not going to see significant tax changes.

It's because there is a significantly lower rate that's applied to rural land.

We've created some carve-outs for privately held conservation land.

Why would they... you know, consider voting for opportunity if that was their reality?

Why are we bothering with that? How does that make economic sense? Where's the incentive to get off your backside and go and work and get ahead?

So at $19,000 a year, it's very difficult to live on the citizens' income.

It's not designed to be a wage that everyone can use and knock out and work.

The data we've seen from trials overseas tell the opposite story.

It gives people a sense of security.

I've had some illness in my family recently, so I had to step back from work.

But it wasn't enough to sort of go on to a benefit or anything like that.

And it would appear to me that there seems to be a bit of a bipartisan approach right across the political spectrum for us to do this as a nation.

... why are we bothering with that? How does that make economic sense? Where's the incentive to get off your backside and go and work and get ahead?

ahead?So at 19 grand a year, it's very difficult to live on the citizen's income.

It's not designed to be, uh, uh, uh, you know, a wage that everyone can use a- and not go out and work.

There is- the data we've seen from trials overseas tell the opposite story.

It gives people a sense of security.

You know, like my ...

I've had some illness in my family recently, so I had to step back from work, but it wasn't enough to sort of go on to a benefit or anything like that.

And it would appear to me that there seems to be a bit of a bipartisan approach right across the political spectrum for us to do this as a nation.

Why are we, why are we bothering with that? How does that make economic sense? Where's the incentive to get off your backside and go and work and get ahead?

Sure.

So at 19 grand a year, it's very difficult to live on the citizen's income.

It's not designed to be a- a- a- your, a wage that everyone can use a- and not go out and work.

There is- The data that we've seen from trials overseas tell the opposite story.

It gives people a sense of security.

You know, like my, uh, I've had some illness in my family recently, so I had to step back from work.

And it would appear to me that there seems to be a bit of a bipartisan approach right across the political spectrum for us to do this as a nation.

Why are you picking on us?

Sure.

I think it's really, let's go through a couple of the actual sort of mechanisms of the tax.

I think that's really, really important.

We're not a bunch of like urban city slickers who have said, oh, well, this applies, you know, let's build a system that applies to residential property and farms are just the same.

That's not the case.

So we've actually built a whole lot of sort of off ramps within the policy, three in particular that I'll walk through now to ensure that farmers are treated with fairness and dignity and respect and acknowledgement that, you know, a house in town is different to a farm.

So now you've got to pay tax on the land that you own as well.

And maybe we hold and generate our income out of that.

Yeah, exactly.

So we have a vision for a blue-green New Zealand.

We're a blue-green party.

It's in our color.

What we mean by blue-green is...

We don't accept that business has to suffer for the environment or the environment has to suffer for business.

Can you take me through a little bit around what your thinking and your mindset there is?

Why are you picking on us?

Sure.

I think it's really, let's go through a couple of the actual sort of mechanisms of the tax, because I think that's really, really important.

We're not a bunch of like urban city slickers who have said, oh, well, this applies, you know, let's build a system that applies to residential property and farms are just the same.

That's not the case.

So we've actually built a whole lot of sort of off ramps within the policy, three in particular that I'll walk through now to ensure that farmers are treated with fairness and dignity and respect and acknowledgement that a house in town is different to a farm.

And so the biggest and most important one is that the land value tax rate is significantly lower for farmland.

So now you've got to pay tax on the land that you own as well.