Um, and part of kind of the work that She Recovers does is around kind of owning your sto- you know, when we own our story, we let go of shame, you know? Um, so in terms of your sobriety and that decision you made, were there ever moments where you felt like this isn't something that I want to share or d- or was it always something that felt very empowered to, to share?

Hmm.

No, it's in-- That's an interesting question.

So I got sober in my mid-40s.

I'm 51 now, and the thing that led to it was I'd ha- you know, I grew up in the '80s and '90s.

Well, I was born in '75, so I was like a young person in the '90s.

Very, very hedonistic decade.

Um, what was that, what were you seeking to kind of explore or excavate in that book? And how do you feel about belonging now?

What, what do you think that bravery comes from?

I think the bravery comes from the feeling, the absolute certain knowledge that what I'm experiencing is what you're experiencing and what people listening to this are experiencing as well.

And I don't feel any shame around talking about desires or failings or fears because I know that that's what other people are experiencing.

And I think the root of this audacity, this bravery comes from-What happened, my mom had a massive accident when I was 16.

Up until then, I'd had a very stable, loving childhood.

I was very deeply loved as a childhood, and that probably gives, you know, gave ...

I was very lucky to have that, very privileged to have that love as a child.

What does it look like?

It's more nuanced than that.

Absolutely.

And obviously, I'm not putting every single thing that's happening in my life into the books.

It would be impossible and it would be very boring for the reader and it would be very confusing and it wouldn't create an interesting story.

So there is an element, of course, where...

Editing has to go on.

And sometimes in order to protect the anonymity of somebody else, I'll change some small details which would make them non-identifiable.

But that, says Clover, requires a level of emotional honesty.

It's more nuanced than that.

Absolutely, and obviously, I'm not putting every single thing that's happening in my life into the books.

It would be impossible, and it would be very boring for the reader, and it would be very confusing, and it, it wouldn't create a, an interesting story.

So there is an element, of course, where editing has to go on, and sometimes in order to protect the anonymity of somebody else, you, I'll change, you know, some s- small details which would make them non-identifiable.

And the way that I will remember an event and you will remember an event will be very different.

The messy kind of amorphous thing called life into a 80,000 words is an artificial process.

"But that," says Clover, "requires a level of emotional honesty."

When I'm sitting down to write memoir, I am going very deeply into my internal psychological world, and if I'm not honest about what's happening there, then I'm undermining the reader certainly, but I'm also undermining myself as a, as a writer and as an artist.