Chuck Plotkin

The little Steven of it all.

Yeah, the Steven Van Zandt exit and how deeply that affected Bruce and Chuck Plotkin kind of talking about how, like, yeah, that was kind of a big pivot point for him and he was really working

that, a lot of that stuff out.

So...

Man, the writing of these lyrics is so good.

Yeah.

So, yeah, Chuck Plotkin, and we mentioned this in the last episode, that Plotkin points to No Surrender and Bobby Jean as kind of Bruce working out the fact that Stephen is pulling himself away from the E Street Band.

And so Plotkin says this.

And so and it has been widely argued that without the tension between Bruce and Steven, neither of these songs would end up on the record.

And and Chuck Plotkin, who was also one of the other producers credited on the album, played by Marc Maron in the movie.

Yes.

Masterfully.

Yes.

And Chuck Plotkin has said that he believes that Bruce was spending a lot of his energy processing Steven's exit from the band and wrote this and Bobby Jean as part of that processing.

And which leads us to the question that you asked a second ago, which is why did Bruce want to leave this off the album? And Bruce says that he felt it was too naive.

He felt like it was too glib.