Yeah.

You know, all these apps are free to use.

So their incentive is very much to get us to be sucked into our screens.

And so what do they do in order to make that happen? Well, they get very clever, and they actually looked to this other industry, the gambling industry, that's really good at manipulating people on a biochemical level, actually getting their brain chemistry to change so that in the case of gambling, someone will stay in the casino for as long as possible, pulling the lever on the slot machine or pushing the butter, button or whatever it is now.

So the people who design these social media apps actually studied some of those techniques, and they looked at what are known as dopamine triggers, these things that slot machine makers in particular are experts at building into their, their machines that get our brains to release this chemical called dopamine, which helps us establish this habit and this compulsion to stay, in that case at the slot machine, playing.

If you put dopamine triggers into an app, then you'll have the same response in our brains.

You'll end up in a situation where you find yourself continuing to use the app, continuing to refresh the screen to see if there's something new, very much like how you wait to see if the, the icons line up in a slot machine, for way longer than you intend, in contexts you don't mean to use your phone in.

Yeah

Turning now to your new book, The Amazing Generation, can you speak a little bit about what it is? It's actually two books in one, but can you speak about that and the genesis of that?

Sure.

So The Amazing Generation is my new book with John Haidt, who is the author of The Anxious Generation.

The Amazing Generation is a book that's specifically written for kids.

So both John and I have heard from countless people over the years since our books came out, countless adults who've been begging us for a book for kids.

How do I talk to my kids about screens? Do you have a book that I can give to my kids? And so this book is our answer to that.

We realized that if we want to make a real difference in And if we want to avoid another generation turning into what John calls the anxious generation, we have to intervene earlier.

That's one of a big theme throughout our films is the displacement of... interactions in the family.

What do you mean by they use the same technology? How does that work?

So slot machines obviously make money.

You know, slot machine makers make money if you sit in front of the slot machine for a long period of time and you put more and more money into the slot machine.

And so the creators of those devices, they know a lot about our brains and how to mani- manipulate our brain chemistry in a way that will keep us sitting down in front of the slot machine.

So just a few examples there.

They, they basically manipulate our brain's dopamine systems, and dopamine is a chemical that our brains release when we encounter something that is worth, that our, our brain circuitry decides is worth paying attention to and repeating in the future.

So as an example from an evolutionary perspective, because dopamine is actually essential to our species' survival, if you encounter a new source of food in the wild, like you're walking through the woods, there's like a bush with bright red raspberries on it, and you try a raspberry, it tastes good and doesn't kill you.

[laughs]

Yeah

... is what I think of as fun.

And so the thing I really love about that is, going back to what you were asking, is that I think we tend to think about fun as something that happens separately from, quote, real life or, like, our normal life, or it takes a lot of money, or you need to have a lot of time.

But if you think about it instead as being the feeling that comes from these three states, the playfulness, the connection, and flow, you can start to realize that you're probably already having fun.

Little moments of fun, like, little, like, a passing interaction with someone on the street.

Maybe that was a moment of fun.

And then you can also use that as a way to engineer more fun by just trying to figure out, "Are there any ways I can build more playfulness or connection or flow into my life?" Any of those is gonna be great, and then if all three happen at once, you will actually experience fun.

Yeah.

Hmm.

So it doesn't really make evolutionary sense to be able to, for example, sit and read a book for an hour at a time.

That means that our brains already would rather be distractible, and here we have a device with apps on it that's come along with the apps having specifically been designed to distract us, so dis- to d- to distract us from the real world, so we're constantly sep- uh, sorry, splitting our attention between what's happening in real life versus what's on our screen.

And then if you think about what we're doing on our screens, we're not looking at the same, you know, Instagram post for 45 minutes.

We're scrolling through an endless feed of posts, and we're flipping between apps constantly so that we're really just giving our brains these quick, quick, quick moments of, uh, s- of attention, and I believe that's essentially training our brains to be much more distractible than they even already would have been.

And that's an especially concerning thing for kids 'cause their brains are still developing, and they, in many cases, haven't yet developed the skill to sustain their attention on, for example, a book or their homework or whatever it may be for a sustained amount of time.

So really bad things.

Mm.

Yeah.

You know? It's like you could genuinely enjoy what you're doing up to...

Often what I hear from people is they'll enjoy it up to a certain point, but then it starts to feel gross.

It's like junk food.

Um, but what is the opportunity cost of what you're not doing? And also asking yourself, even if you are enjoying what you're doing on the screen, does it feel as good as you'd feel if you did the same thing in person? And then if the answer is no, then okay, well, what opportunities could you create for yourself to do more in person? And I'll say that what I've heard from a lot of people, and it's certainly true for me too, is that the more fun you're having in real life, the less you're gonna be-- and the more fulfilled you feel, the less you're gonna be drawn to screens, you know? I see that all the time for myself, 'cause I think that fundamentally, like, the reason we're drawn to these platforms and these apps and these devices is because we do want to have connection with other people, and we do wanna have fun.

And I mean, I, I have a high bar for fun.

I think that there's a difference between what I call true fun, which is this nourishing, energizing, like life-affirming state, versus fake fun, which is basically just being entertained by content that you consume online.

Like, what are a few things they could do, like, right now to kind of stop the bleeding and, and improve their quality of life?

So the family guide, you also have a free resource kit on your website, the family guide, and The Amazing Generation.

Yes, I'm excited to talk about both.

Um, so The Amazing Generation, as you said, and as we...

When we talked last fall, we, th- this book was about to come out, but it wasn't out yet.

It is a, uh, the subtitle of that is Your Guide to Fun and Freedom in a Screen-Filled World, and it is a book that is specifically written for kids and teenagers, although we've also heard from adults who found it useful, that's intended to help younger people understand the forces that are working against us when it comes to technology, why it's so hard to have healthy boundaries with it, and give them some tools that they can use to actually fill their lives with what Jon and I call real friendship, freedom, and fun.

Uh, because if you think about it, part of the reason that all of us are so attracted to spending lots of time on screens is that there's this promise that being on screens will help us connect with other people, it will give us fun, and it will give us the freedom to discover our own interests and figure out who we are, et cetera.

But in reality, the good stuff comes in real life, and so that's the point of The Amazing Generation.

Wow.

Okay.

As we were talking about earlier, y- activities are not always fun.

Fun is a feeling, it is not a specific activity.

But we each do have a collection of activities that are more likely to lead to fun for us than others.

So you might have some ideas off the top of your head just from me saying that.

You might be like, "Oh, yes, one of my fun magnets is, I don't know, golf," or like whatever it is.

I don't know what your fun magnet is.

Yeah

[laughs]

And he's like, "Someone just sent me your ta- your TED Talk on fun and said I have to watch your talk on fun," which was a lovely moment.

So we started chatting, and we were collaborating in the early days of The Anxious Generation, but then there was this, um, desire to have The Anxious Generation turned into a young readers edition.

And I used to be a middle school teacher, and I like writing ...

Well, actually, I hadn't written a book for kids, but I like teaching.

So I was like, "If you ever need help with that, let me know." So anyway, long story short, we ended up collaborating on The Amazing Generation.

It started in concept as a young readers edition, but it quickly veered off of that.

Mm-hmm.

Katherine, what would be a recommended roadmap when it comes to technology?

Yeah, it's a question I get a lot and I think about a lot as the parent of a 10-year-old.

So I think, again, that there's solutions for us.

So here's what I would recommend to parents.

If your kids are young enough that they do not yet have smartphones or devices, including iPads.

iPads seem to get a free pass for some reason, but they're basically just giant iPhones.

Delay for as long as possible.

And we'd love for you to talk about some simple everyday ways families can cultivate deeper joy, connection and presence.

So tell us about those two modes and the difference.

Sure.

So this is something that John Haidt, my co-author, is very into.

This idea that there's obviously multiple ways to go through the world.

But if you think about defend mode and discover mode, discover mode is when we're kind of open to new experiences and we're in a state of curiosity.

New things feel exciting and not threatening.

We were basically open, open to discovering, open to experiencing things.

young.

And, and the net effect we're hear- like, you look at the Amazon reviews, kids are reading it, and then they're saying, "Mom, I don't want a smartphone when I start middle school." So we're just really thrilled, and it was Catherine's idea how to do that.

I appreciate that.

But, yeah, I think that's really what's been so exciting because we were just talking about what is a win for this book.

And as many people may know, The Anxious Generation talks about getting phones out of schools, more independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world, and then having kids not have smartphones till at least high school and not have social media till at least 16.

Mm

... or they've realized, "I have regrets about my own youth, and I want to live a different way." And they really are rebels because they are standing up against Big Tech and just going their own path.

And so we wanted to try to put their philosophy into words that other people could follow, and so that's the rebels code.

And the basic idea is to use technology as a tool, just don't let it use you.

Here's Catherine Price on the TED stage.

Well, when people tell me their stories about fun, it's really interesting because the details are all different and often quite mundane, but the energy running through them is the same, and there are three factors that are consistently present, and those three factors are playfulness, connection, and flow.

So by playfulness, I do not mean you have to play games, or God forbid, make believe.

I just mean having a lighthearted attitude of doing things for the sake of doing them and not caring too much about the outcome, letting go of perfectionism.

When we have fun, our guard is down, and we're not taking ourselves too seriously.

Connection refers to the feeling of having a special shared experience, and I do think it's possible in some circumstances to have fun alone and for this feeling of connection to be with yourself or the surroundings or the activity.

But in the majority of stories that people tell me about their peak fun memories, another person is involved, and that's true even for introverts.

Mm.

And so when I think about a five-year-old who sees the most enticing, dopamine-filled, low effort, easy, you know, pleasure device-I feel like it's asking a kid a lot, which makes me think, is this willpower? Are there system changes adults and kids need in your environment to help get your attention back?

Yeah, it'd be ridiculous to try to talk about th- this in terms of willpower.

The people who are in charge of designing the most problematic apps and devices hire thousands of engineers whose job it is to hack our brains and to get us hooked on their devices in the same way that slot machines are designed to hijack our time.

And when I say in the same way, I mean literally they studied slot machines.

It's worth noting that slot machines are considered to be so addictive that states don't allow people under 18 to play them.

Yes, and these tech companies hire people who copied those techniques, put all of these dopamine triggers into their apps that are the same dopamine triggers, bright colors, variable rewards, you know, sounds, all these things.

They're in slot machines and they are in smartphones.

Yep

And what have you heard so far?

Yeah.

So yeah, we decided that we wanted to get kids before they had smartphones and social media, even though the book is applicable even if kids do have those things.

So we aim for around nine to 12 years old as our sweet spot.

And we have a graphic novel interspersed in it, as you've seen, by Cynthia Wan Cheng, who's an amazing artist.

But we also have lots of stories from other young people who actually regret the choices they made when they were our readers' age, and suggest that kids wait for longer before getting these things.

And the response so far from kids has been amazing.

We see this around the world.

Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud, available now on Spotify.

And then I got interested in what is this feeling of fun? And my proposed definition is that true fun, as I call it, and I'll explain why I call it true fun in a sec, is when three things happen at once, where we feel a sense of playfulness, a sense of connection, and a sense of flow.

And when I give talks about this, I actually show a graphic that's like three circles, like a Venn diagram, where there's an o- three overlapping circles, and when they, where they all overlap in the center is what I call true fun.

So pla- playfulness does not mean you have to be silly or, like, act like a child, because I know for a lot of people that's deeply [laughs] uncomfortable, including myself.

But it's more just about your attitude, you know, having a lighthearted attitude, not taking things too seriously, finding ways to laugh, silencing your inner critic.

So to go back to two balls, our, our example for this conversation [laughs] like I was saying, if anyone had been too serious about that or too competitive, it would have, the fun would have evaporated.

But we all had a playful spirit, so that kind of attitude.

Yeah.

Katherine, how are you explaining it in the book? Go ahead, Katherine, what do you want to say?

Yeah, so I think one of the things that John and I realized early on, and I know this from How to Break Up With Your Phone as well, is you don't want to come at this from a position of restriction only.

You don't want to just focus on the bad stuff.

There's plenty of bad stuff to focus on.

We could talk for a long time about that.

John and I really wanted to give kids and their parents a positive way forward and to frame this as a choice.

If you truly believe that if young people and if kids really understood what was being done to them and also how good life can be, they actually wouldn't choose this path for themselves.

Catherine, what would you say?

That's manscaped.com/modernwisdom and MODERNWISDOM20 at checkout.

I, I have many, I have many thoughts in response to that, because screens do make our perception of time speed up.

So, I would say that whilst time itself is not speeding up, as you pointed out, I do think our experience of time can be m- modified by what we're doing.

It can seem to go fast, it can seem to go slow, even though it's objectively moving at the same speed.

And I think that, yes, to go talk about what you're talking about, novelty certainly is going to help create new memories.

Because novelty, again, is something that makes evolutionary sense for us to pay attention to, because it might indicate a threat or a source of food, something important to know about.

So, we're gonna pay attention to and remember novelty.

Fair enough.

And so what advice do you have for us? Help us out.

Well, I would say to cut yourself a break because you're exactly correct.

It's not easy and no one's relationship with their phone is ever going to be perfect.

Mine is not perfect.

And I literally wrote the book, but it's a lot better.

And it's something that is a constant.

It's a reminder to me like my the work I've put into trying to create a healthy relationship with my phone not only has resulted in a better relationship, but it's trained me to just be hyper aware of it.

But first, tell us what your definition of fun is, because I think there's a really great message here, too.