What parallels do you see between Clancy and Yates?

I mean, it's almost like a carbon copy case.

You've got the signs, you've got the time in a mental institution, you've got the suicide attempts, you have all the warning signs.

I mean, Andrea Yates was on Haldol, one of the strongest antipsychotic drugs you could possibly give her, and yet she still had more children, which makes you wonder if she really wanted to have those children.

Was she enough conscientious about her choices? The point is, Lindsay Clancy, by comparison, not only had all the same signs, but was probably not even getting the level of mental health care that Andrea Yates was, apart from the fact that she was prescribed 14 drugs by all these different doctors.

That whole idea that you can't plan when you're psychotic, Andrea Yates proves that you can.

She had actually been drawing bathwater a few days before that.

Do you think this could result in maybe a plea agreement rather than a retrial?

Casey, how do you see this? I mean, we've been talking about this and thought, did not think, I don't believe that either of us that by Thursday this would still be happening, the trial would still be going on.

And this jury is tired and you can tell from the note from the foreperson that they're very frustrated.

And it's not that this is just a person who truly believes in guilt.

I mean, the note made a statement, this person refuses to listen to the letter of the law as you've instructed it.

In other words, I believe that this holdout juror has voiced doubt, reasonable doubt, has participated in deliberations, and still at the end of the day is saying, well, yeah, I do have some reasonable doubts, but I'm gonna vote guilty anyway.

That has to be, in my estimation, the foundation for why this statement is coming to the judge.

The judge lined up all 12 people.

And so, Casey, now that we do know it is split 11 to 1, first off, does that surprise you that that's where these jurors have come down after listening to this? It

How does a jury approach something like this?

Well, Massachusetts has, if, [laughs] if you want to claim an insanity defense, Massachusetts is the place to do it.

They don't even use the word insane.

Bottom line is that the burden to prove that she is not criminally responsible is on the prosecution.

There's almost a presumption when she presents this defense that she was under the throes of postpartum psychosis when she did that, that it's the prosecution's job to prove otherwise, and I don't know that they've actually done that.

Their theory is that this is all part of a master plan that goes back for several months, where she was doctor shopping and taking different medications and stopping taking the medications, all because she resented her children and didn't wanna be a mother anymore or was trying to regain control.

There's just no evidence of that.

How are you looking at, at who's deciding Lindsay Clancy's fate here?

you're going to send your hate mail to Casey.

No, honestly, listen, I pride myself truly because, as I say, I have the heart of a prosecutor.

And yet, because I already have a full time job at the state of Connecticut as a professor, I can't be a prosecutor.

So when I do work, when I do trial work, I'm on the defense side and almost exclusively in mental health defenses and issues.

So.

You think that I'm bandwagoning for the defense.

Listen, this case just we are.

Do you even have to know if you're a juror? Does she have to have heard a voice to find her not criminally responsible?

Now you're going to send your hate mail to Casey.

No, honestly, listen, I pride myself truly because, as I say, I have the heart of a prosecutor.

And yet, because I already have a full time job at the state of Connecticut as a professor, I can't be a prosecutor.

So when I do work, when I do trial work, I'm on the defense side and almost exclusively in mental health defenses and issues.

So.

You think that I'm bandwagoning for the defense.

Listen, this case just we are.

Do you even have to know if you're a juror? Does she have to have heard a voice to find her not criminally responsible?

Do you think there could be secrets, though, that we don't know about with Patrick?

Listen.

You never know what happens behind closed doors or what secrets people hold.

And the bottom line is that it's very tempting and human nature on behalf of all of the cyber sleuths to want to look at the theory that maybe Patrick was having an affair.

A lot has been made about his trip to New York.

And of course, he has since remarried a woman in New York, a doctor who specializes in fertility treatments.

And there's even the rumor that he's had a child.

What did you say it's called in Massachusetts, like insanity? What do they call it there, you said in the beginning?

Why is this the saddest ever? Give me sort of your sweeping, overarching thoughts about what this case represents.

I think that for everyone, just e- the idea that any mother could strangle her babies to death is unthinkable.

And your immediate reaction is that she has to be insane.

And yet, at the same time, there's no winners here.

This is a woman who jumped out the window, uh, you know, slashed her own wrists and her neck, has a long history of mental illness and postpartum depression since 2020, for three years prior to the incident.

And I think that everybody's just kind of like, you know, it's sad because if it is true that she was in the throes of postpartum psychosis, and she'd been crying out for help for years, she didn't get the help that she needed, and the children are the people who paid.

And it's also sad, I think, that, that, uh, for a lot of people, you want someone to be responsible for this entire, uh, debacle, these, these dead children.

And I, I would love you to weigh in on where you see people in this day and age, whether they're willing to accept that if a mother kills three kids, they can still give her the criminally insane pass or whether they just can- cannot get past the act itself.

Mm.

But what stands out to me is the conversational tone.

"Hello, Savannah." I mean, this is not usually how professional kidnappers start.

You know, they talk about she's safe but scared.

Well, she's not safe, because she's a captive.

And of course she's scared.

Don't state the obvious.

Yeah.

Give me a sense of the kinds of stories and the kinds of cases that, I mean, I know they run the gamut, that have given you insight into what this is all about.

Well, stalking is very often part of a much larger trajectory of true violence.

It doesn't always turn violent, though, right? No, it doesn't always turn violent.

It depends on how you handle it.

And it also depends on law enforcement's reaction to your complaints.

Again, every stalker is different, and it's really important to understand what is their motivation if you're going to figure out the best way to handle it.

Now, keep in mind that stalking starts with unwarranted contact, right? This is a person who won't stop once you have pointed out, I don't want you to be in touch with me.

What's a PPO?

Mm.

And kindness, for certain stalkers, throws fuel on the fire.

It gives them even more power.

They're abusing you, but you're, mm, you're gonna soften it and just go, "You know what? You're a really nice guy, but I'm just not that interested." They will, um, very often excessively not just follow you, but message you, give you unwanted gifts, which leaves you with a feeling of obligation to thank you.

Um, they, y- they will follow you.

One of the biggest things you have to do is really monitor whether they're following you.

It is not a coincidence when they're always in the grocery store-

And before I let you go, what about resources? What's out there for people to be helped, um, um, bec- if you, if you don't go to the police and you don't go to the courts? What, what, what, what's out there and available to help you out?

Okay

... personality disorders are in the Cluster B zone of that.

So when you hear about people who are borderline, who are histrionic, um, narcissistic, I mean, if I...

I've been avoiding using that word because it's overused and overdiagnosed, but-There's no way you can watch Mackenzie Shirilla and not come to the conclusion that she's incredibly narcissistic.

Everything is about her.

So when you see her behaviors, especially the social media, it's all about a preoccupation with her own self-image and her body and her looks, but also her public image.

She needs everyone to be looking at her at all times, and that creates very often attention seeking and risk taking.

Yeah

I would've assumed that would be a no bond, you're behind bars until, until trial.

Well, it depends on the state, clearly.

I mean, different states kind of go with different bonds.

And I, I'll start by saying it's probably just one of those rubber stamp things that for homicide, the judge is just gonna be like, "Million bucks, million bucks." And of course, people of different means can pay that or not pay that.

Uh, and again, depends on the state.

Usually you're paying 10% of whatever they have listed as bond, so that'd only be $100,000.

And I understand the family bonded him out, so that's not that much money for a family.

So clearly things w- I mean, what do you think was going on there?

Why?

Quite simply, there's no evidence that this was a kidnapping for profit.

And at the very beginning, this is a logical thing for the family to believe because Savannah Guthrie is a household name across the nation.

This is classic, if you will, survivor's guilt.

You go to the worst-case scenario because you feel helpless, and you feel like there's something that you should be able to do.

It is not uncommon for people to blame themselves, uh, when, uh, whether it's a child, a parent, any loved one disappears.

The helplessness makes them feel guilty that they should be able to do something.

Mm

Mm.

Very often it's the accomplice, if it's a master-disciple kind of duo, who actually ends up folding.

And Savannah's message was very clear.

There were three, uh, times she said, "We believe," and just left it dangling there.

We believe what? We believe what? She draws you in, and then she says, "We believe in the essential goodness of human beings." So it's kind of like, "We know you have a good heart, we know you wanna do the right thing." And the final message she left was, "It's never too late.

It's never too late.

No matter how bad you might feel, you can still do the right thing." And I think it was a really important message to get out there-

Why would an abductor feel more comfortable reaching out to, uh, TMZ than the family or law enforcement?

So Casey, I mean, w- what, what strikes you about this latest message from Savannah Guthrie? The, the, her appearance in the latest video, the message of it.

Well, let's just start by saying the one that she and her siblings put out on Saturday was really dark.

It was dire.

They were holding hands.

They were talking in a cryptic language that suggested that they were grappling with the reality that Nancy may no longer be with us, except in spirit.

And today we see a different Savannah.

She seems strong.

Yeah.

You know, how, how big a pr- a possibility do you think that is?

I think it's something that the FBI and the police are absolutely considering.

I mean, we're talking about tens of thousands of hours of video footage that they have got to pore through, looking for anything.

Uh, an equivalent amount of digital evidence for cell phones that could be pinging, uh, off the local towers.

This is a massive undertaking, so I don't think anyone, uh, is holding the, the FBI or the local police, you know, in criticism.

But the bottom line is that we have not, as Jim pointed out, seen anything like this.

We do not usually see kidnappers for profit communicating through news stations.

Mm

Uh, tell us the, uh, the importance of these ransom notes a- a- and one particular detail, for ransom to be paid in, in Bitcoin? Is that unusual?

Yeah.

Well, it's a sign of the times, isn't it? Uh, but mostly I think that, that...

There's a number of these.

I- my perspective is always that they are hoaxes until they are proved to be legitimate, and that should be our approach.

Uh, to be paid in Bitcoin, I mean, it's- uh, this was, I believe, sent to, um, KOLD, a news station.

I understand, you know, that TMZ has gotten a few, or at least one as well.

What does that say about whomever kidnapped Ms. Guthrie, that they were able, it seems, at least up to this point, to cover their tracks so, so effectively?

Casey, uh, it- I mean, well, first of all, Casey, just from your experience, what, what stands out to you? What are the data points of, of, you think are significant in what we know and don't know?

Well, we seem to know a lot less than we do know, and now that we're coming up on 72 hours, I mean, this is really unusual.

Uh, you know, uh, what bothers me is that there just is no video or digital evidence.

I mean, she has cameras, but you would think if they had any imagery that they wanted to share with the public, it would be out by now.

Uh, they said there are no footprints, there are no tire tracks.

This would indicate to me that this was incredibly well-planned, and that would suggest that it was targeted, but as you said, they're walking that back.

I mean, what are the chances this is just an unhinged, random intruder who kidnapped an 84-year-old lady? I mean, Anderson, kidnappers rarely take old folks who can't walk more than 150 feet, uh, or babies, because they are a liability.

What do we know, first of all, about Nick Reiner's behavior prior to the deaths of his parents? Were warning signs missed?

Well, the warning signs were there.

How you interpret those signs and what you do with them very often is an issue of family choice.

But a lot is being made of the Conan O'Brien holiday party that Rob Reiner and his son Nick attended the night of.

And the behavior was described of Nick by being extremely inappropriate, erratic.

He was walking up to people, asking if they were famous, interrupting their conversations.

And one, you know, there's a report of one famous actor, Bill Hader, just kind of turning to him and pointedly saying, you know, I'm in the middle of a private conversation.

your reaction to that, Casey?

Um, one of the most striking details that we learned from this press conference were, uh, again, about those bullet casings and the inscriptions, "hate fascist," the words, "Bella ciao," the words, "If you read this you are gay." What do you see as the significance, um, or the- what he- what the message is that he's trying to communicate here?

Really, I would need to actually see these words in the way that they are on the bullet casings and the gun to make a proper interpretation.

But just knowing what those words are, I'm kind of overwhelmed with how immature it all sounds, and that there is no really chronic theme.

Um, I think Brandi really nailed it, you have to make of it what you want, because, you know, it's like, "Seize bulges," "If you're reading this you're gay." You know, "Catch this fascist" or, "Hey fascist, catch." It- it's- it's like the rantings of a really immature child.

And we really need to learn a lot more about what was going on in this accused shooter's life when all of this was happening.

Was he in a rabbit hole? Was he- did he have no job? Did he have no purpose? You know, how did he become, uh, such a consumer of hate? That his family reports he was- he was, uh, you know, talking in- in- with hate speech, um, about his feelings about the victim, th- just at the family dinner the night before.

We get the impression he didn't live at home, because they talk about the Discord messages with his roommate, but they also confirmed he is not a college student at the university where the crime happened.

Interesting.

How does a person like this, Casey, become a suspected killer?

Well, (laughs) in a nutshell, I'm not sure we were expecting him to be 22 and so vulnerable.

We knew we had the age right, the description was correct, but I think we were expecting to see a little bit more evidence of him being a hardened extremist when in fact, it looks like he's just a rudderless kid.

Uh, I don't know if he has a job, does he have a girlfriend, you know, other than going to tech school.

You know, we just know that he went to college for one semester and then left.

What has been going on in his life in the last four years since he finished high school and became a presidential scholar in college? What's been going on? Has he just been a mass consumer of video games and videos and online vitriol? And I think that there's something, uh, a little bit pathetic about the writings on the gun and the bullets.

Mm-hmm.

But the appeal of it, and, and don't forget, so much of this vitriol is bots.