Campbell Live

So all of those things have kinda contributed to making the economics of reality TV a lot more difficult, which means that we don't see as much and we don't make as much.

And Phil, I guess you might feel that as well because, you know, having worked in, say, current affairs and things like Campbell Live, which basically don't exist anymore because that primetime habit changed.

And do you see the same thing maybe happening in, in this genre as well?

Yeah, and I'm, I'm trying to fight my schadenfreude around this because if you'll remember, Colin, back in the days of, of, uh, Sunday and 3D and Campbell Live, all those shows that got axed, and a lot of journalists that got made redundant by those shows going under looked to reality with something of, um, a, a bit of hatred in their eyes, I think, about how money seemed to be going and resources seemed to be going towards making this vacuous product.

For things to turn around and for reality now to be facing that same thing, um, yeah, I feel for them.

But, uh, there was also the, what they used to call hammocking.