How much do you think that that has been eroded, that presumption of innocence has been eroded by tough-on-crime, not only politics, but media content as well?

That's a great question.

I think we still believe firmly in the presumption of innocence, but people don't understand the system really well.

So when you see mugshots on television, when you watch Law and Order, when you watch any of these shows, you kind of forget about the presumption of innocence.

And what you're getting is people who are made to appear guilty, right? So that's the conception that people have.

You know, in writing this book and asking my neighbors about the issue, one thing that I learned is that a lot of them thought bail was a fine, right? A fine that is set after you've been convicted of something.

The idea that bail is set before evidence has been tested, before anyone has been cross-examined, you know, they just didn't know that.

Camillo, what do you and Robin mean by real safety and how does the current bail system not provide real safety?