In order to get the nutrients that you need without touching on animal products, I imagine that that's a very large amount of vegetables that you need to eat.

I mean, I don't know large.

I mean, the, my...

If you just look at the evidence and you say my...

I'm trying to goal line 35 trillion cells that make up me, and the objective function is to reduce entropy.

So I'm, I'm running this, this massive computational model with 35 trillion cells on goal alignment with myself, and I'm basically saying, "Can everything inside of me, uh, try to go after one goal, which is less entropy?" And we're looking at all the evidence, we're looking at all the different data, but to me it's a really interesting quandary because we think about goal alignment and cooperation of can we get AI to align with eight billion humans? Can we get 100 and, you know, 60-some odd nation states to cooperate on planet Earth? Like, we're always thinking about these big cooperation problems, but the, the cooperation problem, the goal alignment problem almost never is asked of each one of us.

We get to always point our finger at everyone else and blame everyone else and ask everyone else to align their goals with ours.

But before we even get to that, how can someone work out what it is that they want to want in life?

Brian, why do you do all of this? There would be people who are asking, why do you think it's important to solve aging?

I think Kate and I really love the game that we're playing.

Uh, at heart, we are artists.

We enjoy the creative expression of life.

You know, we, uh, this is a scientific endeavor, but we love artistry, and we love being creative and playful.

And the way we understand this project is really through a historical lens that if you fast-forward, you know, a few decades or even a few centuries, and they look back and they, they try to identify the cultural movements that changed the course of humanity, we, we want to try and nudge the human race towards a shift in how we think about life and death.

I mean, humanity's greatest ambition from the beginning of time has been to overcome death, and humanity's been very creative.

Brian, I'm curious to hear more about what's at the core of this Don't Die idea.

Bryan, why do you do all of this? There would be people who are asking, why do you think it's important to solve aging?

I think Kate and I really love the game that we're playing.

Uh, at heart, we are artists.

We enjoy the creative expression of life.

You know, we, uh...

This is a scientific endeavor, but we love artistry, and we love being creative and playful.

And the way we understand this project is really through a historical lens that if you fast-forward, you know, a few decades or even a few centuries, and they look back and they, they try to identify the cultural movements that changed the course of humanity, we're playing that game.

What a- what about stuff like, you know, having families being part of the human experience as well and growing and developing families? In this ideal that you see of people potentially living for a great deal longer or forever, what would we do about population and, uh, you know, the world just being depleted of all its resources?

I like that.

It's not just about tripping.

But it, it, we had, it, we had evidence in terms of like it was good for blood glucose, it was good for my microbiome, it was good for...

Like, we had this really long list.

Very surprised that this ancient medicine that's used in rituals and then also used as a party drug, uh, was also like this, this hidden thing about longevity.

So, but then I'd say that the...

What seemed real when I was in there is when you go into that world, that world is as real as this world.

... like, having a glass of wine?

What's your response to that?

The body is insane.

In any given moment, it's doing millions of things.

For example, it's perfectly maintaining your body temperature right now, both you and me.

It's maintaining proper blood glucose levels.

It's maintaining proper cholesterol levels.

It's fighting inflammation.

Is that just a sexy slogan or do you truly believe there will ever be a point where human beings are immortal?

So what was going on in your life when you decided that this should be your mission?

Yeah, I-- When I was-- I guess it goes back to when I was twenty-one years old.

I returned from, uh, serving as a-- working as a missionary in Ecuador.

I had lived, uh, in mud huts on dirt floors, and I understood the depths of poverty, and I just was-- I was struck by the opulence of the United States and the conditions where I was at in Ecuador.

And so in that moment, I said, "I don't know what I want to do with my life other than I want to do something useful for mankind." And so I said, "I'll become an entrepreneur.

I'll make a whole bunch of money by age thirty.

Then with money, I'll do something interesting," you know, a, a very common thing people hear.

Okay.

Built a truck like that?

Yeah.

We did the whole interior, the exterior, the whole thing.

Uh, it was a really cool project.

Something my dad and I got, got to connect on.

This must be like 40 years old How fun.

How fun.

Is that a good thing?

I was watching those unfold with intrigue.

So we really d- we discovered quite a few things that-- I didn't, I shouldn't say discovered.

Um, we found out a lot of... quite, quite a few things.

So one is, for those who are new to sauna, um, dry sauna has the most evidence because you're trying to get your core body temperature up, and so infrared does not get hot enough, and wet sauna, uh, will basically burn you at the temperatures you need.

So dry sauna is the right-

Yeah.

We, it was very controlled.

Like we didn't do any therapies in that timeframe that were meaningful.

... session number within, like, weeks.

Yes.

So, like, there are some specialized applications where, and people where it makes sense for the person to do, but I just want to be very sensitive.

I understand, like, it sucks to hear something's really efficacious, and you can't get at it.

Exclusionary.

Yeah, that makes sense.

So, like, uh, but yeah, we, we, we basically, like we do with all things, we measure...

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, like, your willpower goes down all day.

It makes sense.

Like 7:00 PM, like, you have stress, you're worn down.

Like, you just wanna, like, whatever.

So that was my issue was I overate at 7:00 PM.

And so I did it every day for years.

You're a slippery motherfucker.

Give me, after all of the experimentation, what's the 30,000-foot view on how to get perfect sleep?

You, you want to lower your resting heart rate before bed.

It's the highest value biomarker you can track on a daily basis.

So you'll find that everything that increases your heart rate before bed, besides sex, is bad for you, and everything that lowers your heart rate before bed is good for you.

And so, for example, food, timing of food is really important.

So if your bedtime's at 10:00 PM, you wanna have your final meal of the day at 6:00 PM.

So four hours.

Mm.

He shot his shot after shooting many shots, actually.

That's exactly what, you know, I'm going through my head.

It's like, biathlete, like, just stick to your 50 meters or whatever it is.

Don't...

Let's not shoot this kind of shot in this situation, right? So and that's, and that's what I would tell him.

I think in a lot of ways you've gotta, you gotta use humor there to diffuse the situation with the individual because he, he just blew up his life, really.

Because it's...

Talk to me about some of the ways that the romantic mind tells people to try and fix breakups that the, um, sort of status-driven, slightly more rational mind has got a bit of a, an aversion to.

Um, and people look at you and think, "He, does he look that healthy, really? I mean, where's the glow? Where's the sunshine? Do you ever go out in sunshine? Do you ever expose yourself to the rays, or is that part of the regimen that you can't do that?"

I mean, the, the goal is don't die.

And so the, my entire hypothesis of this project is we live in the most unique time to ever happen to the human race, and that is for the first time in human history, we may be the first generation who won't physically die.

Now, that is the craziest thought possible in this moment.

Just like previous thoughts, uh, where other things have been unimaginable.

And so I ta- my job is to be the first human don't die prototype, which means I identify everything that causes me to die, and I remove that, and I cau- I then measure everything that causes me to live, and I improve that.

And so going out in the sun, the sun is great.

Um, but how do you feel when you see a lot of people gleeful at the prospect that you might die, and therefore, na, na, proved you wrong? You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So, like, your willpower goes down all day.

It makes sense.

Like 7:00 PM, like, you have stress, you're worn down.

Like, you just wanna like, whatever.

So that was my issue was I overate at 7:00 PM.

And so I did it every day for years, and every night was the same battle, right? Like, "I'm not gonna do it.

You're a slippery motherfucker.

Exclusionary.

Yeah, it makes sense.

So like, uh, but yeah, we, we, we basically, like we do with all things, we measure...

We had this, we cast this really wide net.

We measured everything we could.

My brain, my microbiome, um, a full blood panel, um, saliva, stool, metabolomics, proteomics, like you name it, we measured it, and we just found improvements across the board.

It was really... 'Cause most therapies will improve like this particular marker or that marker, but rarely do they have this broad spectrum improvement.

Better than red light, better than microneedling

Give me, after all of the experimentation, what's the 30,000-foot view on how to get perfect sleep?

You, you want to lower your resting heart rate before bed.

It's the highest value biomarker you can track on a daily basis.

So you'll find that everything that increases your heart rate before bed, besides sex, is bad for you, and everything that lowers your heart rate before bed is good for you.

And so, for example, food, timing of food is really important.

So if your bedtime's at 10:00 PM, you wanna have your final meal of the day at 6:00 PM.

So four hours.

Mm.

He shot his shot after shooting many shots, actually

... that's exactly what, you know, I'm going through my head.

It's like, biathlete, like, just stick to your 50 meters or whatever it is.

Don't...

Let's not shoot this kind of shot in this situation, right? So and that's, and that's what I would tell him.

I think in a lot of ways you've gotta, you gotta use humor there to diffuse the situation with the individual because he, he just blew up his life, really.

Because it's...

Talk to me about some of the ways that the romantic mind tells people to try and fix breakups that the, um, sort of status-driven, slightly more rational mind has got a bit of a, an aversion to.

I was watching those unfold with intrigue.

So we really did-- We discovered quite a few things that...

I didn't, I shouldn't say discover.

Um, we found out a lot of... quite, quite a few things.

So one is, for those who are new to sauna, um, dry sauna has the most evidence because you're trying to get your core body temperature up, and so infrared does not get hot enough, and wet sauna, uh, will basically burn you at the temperatures you need.

So dry sauna is the right-

Yeah.

We, it was very controlled.

Is this next, anti-aging shots?

It is.

I think the, it's really a very big moment for the human race.

Uh, right now, death is inevitable.

You know, whether it's an expectation of 79 years, you just plan out your life.

We're now entering an era where lifespan may begin extending longer than our horizons imagine, 90, 95, 100, 120, 130, where at some point we say, "Huh, are we the first generation who aren't gonna die?" Now, that does not mean im- immortality.

It means that lifespan may begin extending longer.

It's only six hours, but still, any tips?

... that kind of spurred you? Or was it a fundamental, "I think this is possible now, therefore I'm gonna do it"?

It was...

Yeah.

So when I was twenty-one I, I felt motivated.

I wanted to do something that would be useful to the human race.

I had read a lot of biographies.

I was familiar with history.

It'd be interesting to understand your current sort of hot take on the spectrum of things you can do today and the things that are coming down the pipe.

Before we get into your experience, why did you choose to do it?

Two things.

One, mostly as a longevity experiment.

So when, when we, when I started this project five years ago, the, the approach we had was go through all the scientific evidence ever published on health and longevity, try to find the interventions that have the best evidence, uh, for effect size, and then we just went down the list from top performing on down.

So of course you start with, uh, exercise, nutrition, uh, you know, um, sleep, and you work your way down to things like hyperbaric oxygen therapy and sauna and then rapamycin, metformin.

And so we never actually had on our radar psychedelics.

They were always either an ancient medicine, you know, being used in, in ritualistic practices or being pointed at things like depression and anxiety in, in certain trials.

Like break your brain.

Bryan?

I think it will be like, uh, what's happened in the stock market where it used to be the case that, uh, a, an investor would read up on a company, read all their reports, study the industry and decide on that stock and now a substantial amount of trading on in the market is these high f- uh, high frequency trading systems where these algorithms are ingesting gigantic amounts of data.

They're seeing patterns that humans cannot and they're executing transactions at the millisecond scale faster than any human can make a decision and beyond the knowledge of any human.

And I think these patterns will be very thorough through humans as well, that our health will be managed like a high frequency trading system.

That right now we think about these things very, like we're a stock picker for our body.

Like we say, "This food is good in my body." It's just like picking a stock.

Whereas we'll be much more granular about the molecular structure of a given thing and the data will be acquired from our body, it'll go into an algorithm and it, it will start trading on our behalf at the molecular level.

Go for it

Hm.

And so when you have basically unlimited optionality in the world...

So I spent 10 years trying to figure that out, and I did one thought experiment which really helped, uh, bring clarity, is, um, I imagined trans- I imagined, imagined traveling in time to the year 2500, so a few hundred years into the future, and there you are sitting among those that exist.

Like, are they human? Are they AI? We don't know, but they, there they are talking, and they're reflecting on the early 21st century, our time.

And they're saying, "We appreciate homo sapiens that lived in the early 21st century because they did blank that allowed intelligence to still exist in the universe." What'd they do? Like, they didn't destroy themselves.

And I thought about that question for years.

I think they say two things.

Hm.

What, what do you think the future of health wearables is?

Yeah.

So that's exactly, again, what we're building with this first three people into more Immortals.

Like, if you say...

So my life over the past five years has generated a few billion data points.

A few hundred million are useful.

Mm.

And so when you're trying to tease out little, tiny signal, you do need to be robust with the analysis.

Believe.

[chuckles] Well, I guess.

First, like, um, your most prized possession is agency.

Nothing valued more than your agency, and right now, most people's agency is compromised, that they are not the architects of their life because they compulsively scroll, they compulsively eat fast food, they compulsively, uh, like do all these addictive behaviors, and then when pressed on it, they rationalize it as virtue because they're trapped.

And so I would challenge everyone here to say, like, reclaim yourself, don't do anything you don't wanna do, and that the enemy is the motherfucker who's trying to get you to do something that is not in your best interest.

Fuck them.

That is the enemy, and so, like, that gives you real moral power.

Mm