Go if I can jump in.

Loving the discussion, gang.

Sorry, my phone's been acting goofy, so I've been in and out.

But piggybacking off Tomra's last point, I think that line of thinking is very, very profound.

And I'm going to bring up some arguments that I learned from Kevin Kelly.

And Kevin Kelly is a... maybe seven-year-old, 75-year-old technology legend.

He was the founding editor of Wired Magazine.

But if you don't make those intentions part of the technology itself, then they're just like human goals that can't be enforced.

These are just frameworks, ways to think about Bitcoin that I thought was interesting.

Okay, so the Apaches, what we know is it appears they came across the land bridge connecting Alaska to Asia, call it during the last ice age.

And at some point, as the ice melted in the northern part of North America, essentially it was covered by a mile of ice.

giant sheets of ice when that started to melt the this group would work south through the rocky mountain corridor uh west of the rockies i should say between the rockies and sierras they work south and along the way as they found better land to settle on that group fractured into several smaller groups and just you know hey here's a good place to live hey let's be let's be in the mountains here let's go over there and eventually they settled in the southwest And you can think like modern day, New Mexico, Arizona, Northern California.

Okay.

And what's interesting about the Apache is their social group is not really hierarchical.

It's more of a decentralized autonomous type of group.

you can actually extend that to governments as well, because governments are like the parasites that upset the balance and then cause everything to go out of kilter.

They're going to leak all that data, and then that's going to be designed to fuck you up.

Just to tie off the anthropic one, I'm on team open source.

I agree with the ethos of everything, but I don't think keying in on the guardrails on the cloud models right now is worth it.

I think that's a red herring.

The fight is...

Will Anthropic achieve regulatory capture, which obviously protects their profits selling us models.

However, the entire population, all the businesses, they're going to demand open source due to cost.

to the moon.

Yeah.

I'm going to bring up a little history here.

1946, I'm going to get my dates roughly wrong, but the gist would be correct.

1946, US federal debt to GDP was like 120 or 110, something like that.

And five years later, they got it down to 55.

How did they do such a thing? They absolutely destroyed the bondholders.

And that peaked at about negative 13% annual returns in real returns, so inflation adjusted.

And there's just wild divergence of... speculation on what ai is going to do to the economy into society so there's just that singularity where we just don't know what's going to happen can combined with the precarious state of the fiat money system uh and and you get the fourth turning right brandon this is a big one

And yeah, we'll jump in and I'm excited for this one personally.

Go ahead, Brandon.

Hey, what's up gang? All right, I'm gonna give a quick intro to Ryan and we will kick it off here.

Nuclear Bitcoiner, Ryan and I met, I think this was maybe three years ago.

Ryan, keep me honest, but we had a nuclear conference, nuclear energy conference in Minneapolis.

And Ryan works in the industry in Canada and he was in town for some business related things for that nuclear conference.

And so we piggybacked off of all the nuclear energy folks being in town and we hosted a meetup in Minneapolis covering nuclear energy.

Why not?

adopters early majority yeah

yeah and so right after the early adopters which is that like i don't know 12 of adoption or something like that there's this period called crossing the chasm which you're transitioning from very different user groups the early group there are people who like new things they they're willing to put in the work read the podcast buy a cold card.

And then after that, the mainstream market, those are people who just want solutions.

So they're not going to come here to fight the state or any of these ideological things that we rally around.

They're like, Hey, does this help my life? Is it easy? Does it fit in? Okay.

Turn the sports ball back on.

Right.

So yeah, please elaborate on your thoughts there and then let's wrap it up like that.

Yes, we have summoned Brandon.

Good morning, Brandon.

Anytime I hear the word fourth turning, my ears ring.

So here we are.

Yeah, Corey, I think first off, I think, yes, we're we are deep in a fourth turning right now.

I think the point you brought up around wealth concentration is actually a pretty good signpost for fourth turnings.

This kind of happens every single fourth turning.

Okay, so Brandon, what does the first turning look like? Like just in general and then also for Bitcoiners specifically, what will it look like for us? What should we think about preparing for? And yeah, what do we do after we get through this fourth turning cycle?

Mm-hmm.

The properties we care about are not defined in the code, in the so- anything.

They emerge out of it.

And what do I mean by that? Like 21 million emerges out of the code even though it's written down, but how can you trust 21 million? Because everyone involved has UTXOs and it's in their economic best interest not to screw over their own wealth.

And so if you trust humans are greedy, you would trust that the UTXO, UTXO set doesn't wanna screw that up.

That's emergent.

Um, censorship resistance, we could just lose that, right? That doesn't come with Bitcoin.

Mm-hmm

How do you think about the global kind of shift that we are seeing? Is America safe from that? Is safe from like, not just like inside America, but like most American maybe moving to a more socialist, more China way of thinking?

Yeah, big question here.

So let's bring a little history, because I think a lot of people will say, especially more market-driven people in the US, let's say, or wherever, people would say, hey, socialism's bad.

We know this.

We have many examples.

We need incentives.

We need markets.

It's like, how, how can you be negative in those environments?

So I guess what made biology the right lens for you to look at this thing?

Yeah, good question.

So if we rewind history a little bit, I came into Bitcoin, more appropriately, the altcoins in 2017, traded them all, made a bunch of money, thought I was a genius.

And then in 2018, market corrects, and I quickly learned I was not a genius.

And then I had a period of time where I had to decide, like, hey, am I going to just disappear, tail between my legs and just chalk it up to a, you know, bullish, naive mistake? Or is there something actually here? And I'm way too stubborn to quit.

And so I spent about three months in early 2018 teaching myself economics from the ground up, learning from all the Bitcoin podcasts, going to meetups.

I was living in Chiang Mai, Thailand at the time.

What were the nudges, I guess, that required Bitcoin emerging as a monetary tool, Brandon? Was it the internet that finally was like, oh, okay, fiat money can move over these digital rails, so we need something as an antidote to that?