And then kind of what, in your view, though, makes those practices spiritual? Because that seems to be a big part of your argument, this kind of revisioning parenthood itself as like sort of a spiritual practice, even though we tend to think of it maybe not so much that way.

Yeah.

You know, I'm so glad to hear the reference to your book and look forward to looking at it.

Ironically, I think one of the books I bumped into as I was writing mine was a father who had written, I want to say a decade or more ahead of me, also with three children, as I have.

And so I do think this theme of surviving with your faith amid all of the, as I say, chaos of parenting.

I'm not surprised to find you in 2025 still struggling with these questions.

And I have to also say the original cover of the book, I love because, I'll hold it up and they can't see it, but basically it's a back door with just piles of shoes.

So what would you say about all of them?