Yeah.

Yeah, okay, the first part of that question, I think there's so many explanations that are kind of uncomfortable, but we should talk about them because it's like, well, why are we not talking about it? Why have we allowed Hollywood to, most of what we believe about demons has been shaped by Hollywood and possession.

It's been shaped entirely by Hollywood.

And some of that comes from the Bible, right? Like the movie, The Exorcist, that was based on a true story.

Some of those things come from a scriptural understanding, but most of what Hollywood's putting out does not.

And so when the church is not talking about it, We're allowing Hollywood to shape it.

And that should be very, very convicting for all of us that we literally are letting secular culture talk about this church topic more than we are.

Like, how would you begin to have a conversation? And maybe speaking from your experience and investigating these, and maybe, I don't know, one or two anecdotal stories of like, I saw this or someone else saw this, like, where it's just like, I know you're resistant to the idea of there being a spiritual realm, but let me peel back the curtain on a thing or two that I've seen.

or three things, your best learnings?

I think the biggest thing was how ill-equipped we are, I mean, just as a church.

When you see the numbers out there that we have a 4% biblical worldview in this country, and I know people will debate this, they'll say it's not true.

George Barna, though, has been tracking these numbers for years.

And so at the very least, we've declined.

So we can at least say that.

But the fact that we're just not prepared to have basic conversations even about what the gospel is, and that people in our churches aren't prepared, that we have all of...

If you're gonna coach somebody, what's the right way to process information?

So when the Bible tells us to be watchful and to be sober-minded, not to empty our minds and go somewhere else.

Going back to what you were saying before, the question about why, the why for Tucker and some of these others, why at this moment are these things sort of happening? It feels like a number of events have sort of either broken people or opened people or caused people to say more frequently that was evil, right? I think Charlie Kirk's assassination, people saying that was evil.

Some of the reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination, people saying that is evil, right? We don't relish in anybody's death.

You know, the fact that it happened on a college, like that's just one event.

I think we go back to COVID.

That entire experience was probably a turning point for people.

I think even, you know, looking at the psychiatry of that is kind of interesting and how we come out of that and what does that mean? There have been a lot of these events and moments that I think have led us to this recognition.

As we close tonight, Billy, would you just tell us the gospel?

Yeah.

And then probably my mid-30s, that started to shift, and then the last three years, things have...

The last year, things have shifted, and maybe we'll get into some of it.

I don't know.

But some of it's super personal and kinda crazy, but I was always interested in the supernatural.

I always, obviously as a Christian, knew it was true in my mind.

I don't think I knew in my heart that it was true.

Yeah

Talk about how important this is and, uh, i- i- and the Bible as a foundational historical document and why this could be important.

Yeah, you know, I think that we've, we've lost so much in this country.

When you look at public schools, family structures, the things since the 1960s that we've seen erode and fall apart, I personally believe a lot of that from a spiritual perspective is because of our move away from our foundations, from biblical truth, right? Um, but let's just pull back and look at this practically.

The entire country, literally its founding, was based very much on these texts, and so understanding how the country was formed, the ideals it was formed under, all of those things are found in the Bible because the Bible was the central textbook, not just at the beginning of the country, but it was a central textbook in schools into the 1900s, right? And so we had this, this primary shift in the 1960s and these Supreme Court cases that removed prayer, removed the Bible, and I would argue we've seen a slippery slope downhill since we made that decision.

But I think from a historical, practical perspective, removing the, you know, pushing the spiritual to the side, it makes sense that we would return to looking at these documents to understand our founding, who we are, and where we came from.

Now, real quick, Billy, is there any legitimate opposition to this? Do you think we'll see challenges in the courts?

Uh, we're definitely gonna see challenges in the courts.

I think, look, the fear is always that by doing something like this you're gonna alienate people who are not Christians, um, you know, that you're going to-

Okay.

And this apologist was sharing this story, and he shared the names, and some people got worked up about it.

But the apologist was saying that this 19-year-old, again, prominent person, he was sharing the gospel with him, trying to get him to sort of come alongside, accept it, embrace it.

And he was trying all the apologetic tricks, and nothing was working.

This 19-year-old's like, "Yeah, but what about this? What about that?" It wasn't until he started saying, "You know, there are Muslims in the Middle East who have dreams of Jesus, or Jesus appears to them and they become Christians," that this 19-year-old perked up and was like, "Wait, what?" That was the thing-

Yeah.

"I'm here.

I'm listening.

Go ahead.

I lo- I love that you said your piece because I think what's happening here is what you just said.

You have a situation where you now have all these people wondering, "Well, are there aliens? Are there not?" Let me j- let me say this, and let me get this out of the way.

I agree 100%, I think it's demonic, and we can talk about that more.

If there was some chance, and I do not believe this at all, I think it's nonsense, that aliens existed, okay, this idea that it would j- it would rock everybody's faith, and people would have to turn away from Christianity is nonsense because here's the thing.

The Bible's very clear.

Jesus came and died and rose again for mankind, right? Angels, for instance, have free will.

So I know you don't have a lot of time here, but in the la- last couple s- uh, minutes, uh, what, what are some of the stories that you talk about in the, uh, this new episode of Investigating the Supernatural on T- on CBN?

I mean, what are we to understand if we can about those? I know you're looking at modern day experiences, but does it inform at all what we were to think about kind of some of these descriptions in the Old Testament about allowing things that are oppressive to approach people?

Yeah, you know that I think this is one of the biggest questions we have, right? Because an all powerful God, you know, and this is why leaning into understanding God's plan, no matter what it is, and being comfortable with it as difficult as it is, you know, when we pull back and from a 30,000 foot view, we have to say, well, God created everything and he knew what was going to happen.

And that's very difficult for our human minds.

He knew, not only did he know what was gonna happen, when a spirit is allowed to go and do that.

Now, we often don't know, in the case of Job, it seems like he was living a perfect life, a very good life, not perfect, because nobody was perfect but Jesus, but he was living a very good life.

We often don't know what is happening in the spiritual realm.

And so let me actually answer it this way, because I was talking with Glenn Beck about this, actually, which is really interesting.

What about UFOs? What are we seeing out there in the world? Are they demonic things? Are they visitors from other planets? Is there nothing to it? I mean, did you find anything that speaks to any of that part of the conversation and culture today?

Uh, what biblical values do you believe we're lacking in our country today?

Man, this is such an interesting question because we're watching these two things happen.

We're sort of having this Ephesians 6 moment where you've got all these young people flocking to accept Jesus, and then you have all this chaos going on.

And the chaos is not new, but I think you have this intensity of both things happening.

And so when you ask that question, what values are lacking, I mean, it's kinda wild because when Jesus in scripture is asked, you know, "What are, what are the biggest commandments," right? And he says, "Love God and love others," he's talking about the Ten Commandments, essentially.

I mean, he's saying love God, die to yourself, right? Um, and then love other people, you know, more than you love yourself even.

That's what we're called to do.

Like, what's the most satisfying [laughs] answer you can give about how it takes each of us to do the best we can every day?

And I'm not saying... yeah, I wish it was in our homes, right? I'm not saying that all of our problems in the public school system, but, but we used to live in a culture where, yeah, of course you'd have the 10 commandments up in the walls and everyone just knew it in their bones.

Yeah.

Well, and that's the thing.

I mean, you knew it because it's the truth.

It's what's right.

You can argue with the first four if you want to.

Fine.

Like, what do we what? How did that happen? Like, what is going on here? What do we even do within these so-called churches to talk about the pagan secular world? But what do we even do with like this?

Right

... or possessed." So he says, "Okay, I don't wanna do that because [laughs] I'm a skeptic." They say, "You're the perfect person to do it." So he gets into it.

He meets Julia.

Astral projection.

She's in his office.

She tells him, "I know where the priest is.

I know what he's doing right now." She describes the priest walking near the river.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, Revelation 16:12, "The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the east."

Okay.

So it is intriguing that the river is potentially [laughs] drying up, right? So we have to say at a very baseline it is intriguing.

You have a Bible verse talking about that river drying up.

You know, but you also have a lot of complex imagery going on there in Revelation, so we don't necessarily know what that's going to look like.

I would say, though, you pay attention to these things, you have a, sort of a healthy view on it and you sort of say, "Okay, I don't know for sure." I think that's where we ru- run into problems with the end times, right? It's sort of like saying, "I know for sure this is what's happening." But I will say it's interesting the Euphrates River is still called the Euphrates River.

It's still here.

And so, you know, as someone like yourself who has spent a lot of time investigating this for [laughs], for films and otherwise, uh, y- I, I love what you said about being cautious, but the other side of the token is do- are we too cautious? Do we not look at it? So where, where do you draw the line?

Like, I think we discussed this, not as the person who wanted to be necessarily convinced of all of this early on.

Yeah, no, I mean, going into it, I'm a skeptic on every one of these stories.

You know, I go in and I'm like, "Okay, you're telling me you had this encounter with a demon or an angel.

You're telling me that you had this healing.

Prove it to me," right? Uh, and so we take an investigative journalist approach to these topics.

Our first film was on miracles.

This one's on angels and demons, and our next one is heaven and hell.

Yeah.

Give us, give us what happened there, Billy.

Yeah, this story was the har- really the hardest to believe for me in a lot of ways, um, because, uh, of a lot of different factors.

But Bruce, Bruce Venatta, he was crushed under a semi-truck, and he was doing some work on it.

They had it on a jack.

It was not on it appropriately.

As he's under it, this massive truck lands on him and really crushes his entire abdomen.

He died underneath that truck, okay? And so when that happened, Bruce claims a series of events unfolded.

What's his basic conclusion about demons? And give me an example or two about why he thinks they do exist.

And I have had a great conversation even this morning with my friend and been on the show many years ago but has really made a pretty interesting move and started even I would say with a book he released a few years ago playing with fire and I feel like we've had Billy Hallowell's joining us right now I shouldn't say I should just get to that already Billy Hallowell Billy you know a lot of people may remember you did a lot of politics you talked a lot about the news what was going on the world not that you don't comment on that still as well but something clearly shifted in you to where what we're talking about now is much much deeper

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, and I love that setup because it's so true, right? I mean, I look at the news, I look at politics, but all of these things, you know, especially from a Christian perspective, when you look at the Bible, you have to start to ask yourself, what is going on? You mentioned persecution.

I know that's something you guys cover quite a bit on the show here.

We look at the chaos going on with, you know, Charlie Kirk's murder.

You've got attempted assassinations.

there's so much happening in the world, you start to wonder what is going on beneath the surface, right? And so the Bible talks a lot about this.

And so in the past decade, you know, I have, while still looking at news and politics, also simultaneously been looking at the spiritual battle that is going on, the good versus evil.

And that is, like you said, going through these real accounts from people of their dealings with the supernatural.

Just like problems in the dating market can actually, there are actual conservative solutions to these problems.

I agree with all that.

And I also think there's, and I'm going to drag us somewhere where you might not want to go, but there's a theological problem here though too, right? Because you mentioned all these women who can show up, they can go to church, they can, and yet they'll still feel this way.

The issue of Israel, right? I mean, I think looking at this issue, I used to think, well, the issue is people are falling away from church.

They're not going to church as much.

Therefore, they're not hearing this.

They're not understanding.

And I was told before the show that you have spoken to some of the pastors who were actually present for this conversation.

All right, but with all that said, let's move on to your, your, your new movie, Are Angels and Demons Real? Are they?

You know, I gotta tell you, I have been a Christian my whole life, and I have thought a lot about these topics, but really more so in my mind, not necessarily [chuckles] in my heart.

And so when you go out there and you're on an investigation across the country, which is what we did, you know, this film, Investigating the Supernatural: Angels and Demons, you can watch it at cbn.com/supernatural.

You know, we were confronted with stories that were remarkable.

And even before we got into the field, right? I'm very naturally skeptical, so even though I'm a Christian, it's like, look, you told me you, you had some kind of interaction with angels or demons.

Prove it to me.

You know, I want people to prove it, and I wanna see facts and details.

I'm not a priest, I'm not a minister, I'm not trying to pro- proselytize people.

But beyond that, adhering to those tenets is a testimony to one's own faith.

Yeah, especially, I mean, you think about 1863 in the middle of this horrific war that is threatening to divide the nation permanently.

You know, you're not even a hundred years out from this new country and there's so much horrific, horrible things unfolding.

And yet Lincoln is turning to God, turning to blessings.

And I think about our country today, you know, obviously we have different issues today.

We're fighting over different things.

We're dealing with with totally different monsters that are unfolding in different facets of our culture and our society, and yet the same principles are there.

Is there a possibility that all of us adhering to these principles, to these ideas, could be a way to unite us?

Mm-hmm.

He spent 10 years unable to walk, unable to work, unable to do any of the things that he had previously done.

He could no longer be a cop, and was in excruciating pain, had to have surgery.

It became a total nightmare.

And during that 10 years, and this is what's interesting about every story in this documentary, because this was not intentional.

All of these stories we, we tell three to four stories in depth.

They all dealt with people who had to grapple and fight.

Hmm.

Okay, so tell me, tell me some of the things that you found.

All right.

So let's talk about the guy who was dead for 40 minutes.

This story, when it came across our desk we did a ton of research, dug into it.

Uh, Jeff Markin is a guy who, you know, he wasn't feeling well, went to the hospital.

He has a heart attack.

He dies, essentially, inside the hospital.

Mm.

So tell me, tell me some of the things that you found.

All right.

So (clears throat) let's talk about the guy who was dead for 40 minutes.

This story, when it came across our desk, we did a ton of research, dug into it.

Uh, Jeff Markin is a guy who, you know, he wasn't feeling well, went to the hospital.

He has a heart attack.

He dies, essentially, inside the hospital.

Correct.