Ben Nelson

But my question, my next question is really, and you use the term entrepreneurial.

And last time I had one of these conversations, it was with Ben Nelson from Minerva University, who in effect said, we're going to design outside of the system and build something new in an entrepreneurial way versus what you have experienced and what you've done at the variety of institutions where you've been, which has been all inside the institution.

Mm-hmm.

I think, though, the difference in my sort of watching your career and watching Arizona State and what Michael Crow has done there and now your influence on the university is that oftentimes what it appears that you all are doing at Arizona State is really focusing on root cause issues and solving those, vice the tendency of other institutions.