[laughs]

And then have half an, then half an hour sort of twiddling my thumbs on the other side of the pitch.

So, like, sort of these celebrations and th- this energy thing was, like, a really good way of keeping me engaged in games when I'm not necessarily, like, feeling front and center of, like, the action.

Um- And yeah, it's sort of, it's sort of just gone from there.

Like, it- to be honest, it, it has become more organic.

I, I'm, I can't lie, at the beginning it was not forced, but, like, I was sort of forcing myself to get into that, and now it's very organic.

And frank- luckily I've had some of the best to learn from.

... given your history in the, the tournament?

Like, how does Ben Earl stay fit, healthy, and hungry?

Um, I g- I guess, like, e- everything's got a different challenge.

Like, the Lions was amazing, then the autumn was fantastic.

I've obviously had a, had an interesting year with Sarries.

Like, you know, we nearly, we nearly got there in the end.

And then I guess, um, this summer's got its own challenges with the travel and, and some of the opposition we've got.

So, um, I always think as well, like, you should never take this for granted.

[laughs] Um, Benny, I've gotta ask, Mark McCall, the impact of him, and can the void be filled?

Eventually you came back.

But, but basically, no, well, basically, like, it was one of those where I'd only, uh, I'd only ever been at Sarries, so I, like, didn't really know anything different.

Went to Bristol and sort of, you know, was a bit worried that I was gonna absolutely, like, love it and think, you know, "What the hell was I thinking about coming back?" 'Cause I'd, I'd re-signed another couple of years at Sarries.

Uh, but the best thing happened to me is I went to Bristol, loved it, but thought, "No, Sarries is still, like, the place for me," and still where I thought my game was gonna grow the, grow the best.

And also, the, the, the group of people that I'd, like, grown up with were still at the club.

So, um, yeah, I had the best scenario where I got the taste of something else, but realized that actually Sarries was the, was the place for me.

Yeah, yeah.

So you, he's kind of like, what? He always used, used the phrase pound the rock, didn't he?