And it's interesting to me because if so, it comes just at the moment when the Trump administration has been pushing forward with its own peace initiatives.

Turkey has been for a negotiated settlement to end the war in Ukraine from the beginning.

And as you know, Istanbul talks in early 2022, in April, the first round of diplomacy between Ukrainians and Russians.

I think they show a flicker of hope in those talks.

Much has been written about whether or not the two sides were close to a deal in that conversation.

And I don't want to get into it, but maybe suffice it to say that Turks do think that there was hope there, if only Americans and the Europeans supported Ukrainian position.

That's their take on it as the party that was also in the room for much of the conversation.

And also because it simply, again, emphasizes how important Turkey is to resolving issues that people the world over care about.

What do you mean by that?

Yeah.

So we've been wanting to write a paper on Turkey for a long time.

And my colleague, Evren Balta, professor at Özyurt University, is among the very interesting foreign policy thinkers in Turkey today.

And Before I get into the concept, I want to just briefly, Mark, tell you why we wanted to write this.

Because we felt that Europe has not really been thinking about Turkey.

And Mark Carney has captured everybody's imagination when he said, oh, you know...

Can you explain a bit more how that would work in practical terms, what that would mean?

So what do the Saudis bring to the table?

I guess the short answer is money.

but it's probably unfair to just reduce it to money.

They bring more than that.

Let's not forget Saudi Arabia is the custodian of the holy sites.

It will always have a symbolic importance in the Muslim world and in the Middle East.

Whatever Saudi kings do or don't do and questions about legitimacy, governance and so on, they will always be sitting there in Mecca and Medina.

So how concerned is Ankara about Israel and Netanyahu's strategy of never-ending war and constant chaos as his answer to Israel's security challenges?

According to Turkey expert Asli Aydintasbas of the Brookings Institution, the main obstacle to the process is the timeframe.

The law calls for an incremental process, step-by-step, which starts off with the passing of this legislation and Turkish authorities verifying that PKK has abandoned all weapons.

If this drags on, I think political support for the legislation and for the return of former members of PKK who are seen by a large section of Turkish population as terrorists, I think that would become a politically problematic thing for the government.

So timing and moving fast is very important in achieving this goal for reconciliation.

It's been named the city with the biggest rat problem in America.

They're called roof rats, and there's hundreds of them here.

How do you think Turkey will adapt to a post-Iran war role?

Well, you know, Turkey's relationship with Iran has been very, very unique.

These two countries, I'd say, are frenemies, but, you know, historic rivals.

They've shared the same border.

They've had the same border since 1638.

After decades, almost a century of on-again and on-and-off wars between the Ottoman and Safavid empires, 1638...

Ottomans and Iranian Persian empire sign a treaty.

But there remains a very important NATO base at Incirlik, You know, how does Turkey balance the challenges of integrating with its partners and allies into a modern air defense system, given both the interests, the commercial interests, as well as the variation of threat?

What do you see playing out there?

Yeah, I don't think the Turkey question is settled in Europe, and I don't think there is unanimity.

You're right, Ursula von der Leyen very strikingly talked about Turkey as a strategic threat, as a threat on par with Russia and China, and, you know, [laughs] the commission had to walk back that assessment.

But of course, you know, I, I don't think anybody has forgotten it because it represents a certain viewpoint in Europe, but not everybody's view.

In France, you have a desire for a safe distance with Turkey, very much opposing Turkey's policies in Eastern Mediterranean and, and also unwillingness to work with Turkey on defense industrial cooperation, which we can get to.

But France is not being keen on, uh, including Turkey in, uh, i- in terms of modernizing the free trade agreement with Turkey, including Turkey in safe mechanisms and so on.

And Germany is clearly taking a more pragmatic line.

Well, I mean, part of my skepticism though, I, is, um, you know, we have seen in recent years that Erdogan does kind of want to maintain relationships with, with lots of different sides.

But from the perspective of Turkey's European NATO allies, what will the general perception be within the rest of Europe, not the U.S., but Europe, on this question of the F-35s?

I think Europe is divided on the whole Turkey question.

There's an understanding that there is need for pragmatism and that Turkey is a regional heavyweight.

You know, you have United States and Germany and a bunch of other countries actually tapping into Turkey's assembly lines in Turkey or buying from Turkey.

And of course, it's sort of this big frontier country, as it was during the Cold War.

But Europeans are divided on the Turkey question because there is an accession process.

Back in the day, Turkey applied to be a member of the EU.

How does it affect a Turkey's relationship or Erdogan's relationship with President Trump?