Mm-hmm.

And it's not same between us, either.

I think relationships are huge.

I think a lot of people see what happens in certain places and said, "I, I wanna do that." It's probably not gonna work in your state.

It's probably not gonna work with like the state herpetologist or, or any of the different people that you could work with.

But I think when you keep knocking on doors, and when you start out as a young person, I can remember when we were starting The Turtle Room, a nonprofit organization that, that Chris had been a part of in the past a lot, and I'm the vice president of now.

Uh, our goal was how do we collaborate with people? How do we not push people away from the table, but try to bring in as many people as we can, and just be collaborative? I, I'm, I'm just out of college.

[laughs]

Okay.

So I do have some other spots where I'll put juveniles sometimes when I'm growing them up.

But, you know, my goal, I've, I've, I've raised and hatchedAnd purchased a lot of McCordi that ended up being male, which is crazy.

I mentioned I was gonna buy a young one for 10,000 just to know that I had a male.

I was gonna buy eggs, and I didn't.

I got lucky.

Uh, like I remember the first one that turned male, I made this joke to my friend Yun Rou, the, the turtle monk who, who is into Asian turtles as well and has, has written like 25 books and one of them about turtles.

Yeah, definitely.

Oh, wow.

And up until that point, I really, you know, loved them and was so intrigued by them.

I mean, they look like flavas, Chinese box turtles, but they're different.

They're more, like, streamlined and they're kind of like a mix...

They, they kind of, like, have the, the coloration of a Chinese box turtle, the markings, you know, but then the shape is a little more towards some of those more aquatic Asian box turtles from the genus Cuora, so a little lo- you know, skinnier, longer head and neck, kind of like you see with trifasciata or pani or auricapitata.

So I was just very intrigued by them.

Back then, I can remember a male being offered for sale for $45,000 on-

Mm-hmm