How do I tell the story on the other side and get that message through?

And also to get back to that idea of truth being complicated.

So, for example...

When I went to the Anti-Euthanasia Convention, I didn't know a great deal about the subject and I certainly didn't know a lot about the arguments against.

And I was intrigued to see a number of people from the disability communities there.

And I got a very warm welcome from them because years ago I made a documentary for the ABC called The International Year of the Patronising Bastard, which was actually talking about how able-bodied people discriminate against people with disabilities in so many ways.

And...

People, if you care about the compassion and the empathy of somebody in their end of life when they are suffering, when they are feeling pain, when their entire family is exhausted and they want to have some agency here, Why are we saying no?

Now, Andrew, very aware we're all sort of, you know, reading this for the first time, but if those amendments came into place, you know, would that be a good thing and do you feel the legislation would sit correctly then?

Yeah, I think they would improve the legislation considerably and I think they would make the legislation... what it should be.

You know, the Territory Parliament has a golden opportunity here to build on what we've learned from all the other jurisdictions in Australia.

So, yes, they're going to be last, but they can be better and, in fact, they can be best.

So let's just talk about the gag clause for a second.

This is essentially saying that doctors can't raise voluntary assisted dying with a dying person.

The dying person has to raise it with them.

And I can understand that the government's wanting to tread with caution, but very often... people may not even be told exactly how long they've got.

Why are we seeing this debate around whether patients should be able to access a voluntary assisted dying via telehealth? Why is that happening now?

Well, [laughs] I probably should explain the history of it.

So telehealth is now an accepted part of Australian medical care.

It's k- used in all kinds of settings, acute settings, end of life settings, but is not allowed to, for VAD, and that's because there's a thing, a, a, a federal law called the Commonwealth Criminal Code, and in 2005, it was amended to make it illegal to use a carriage service, that's this, it's the internet, it's the telephone, it's teleconferencing, to disseminate material or a suicide-related material, and this was with a good intent.

It was actually to discourage pro-suicide chat rooms, to discourage people trying to encourage other people to take their own lives.

Now, that was written 12 years before VAD became legal in Australia and had nothing to do with VAD.

However, because Commonwealth law trumps states law, even though states laws say specifically that VAD is not suicide, which is a view supported by Australia's leading suicide prevention organizations who brought out a joint statement a couple of years ago to make that distinction.

What's your response to those concerns?

Do some people change their minds sometimes, Andrew?

Yeah.

Uh, it's, it's extraordinary to me.

F- look, the two main qualifications for pursuing voluntary assisted dying, and this is the universal feedback we get, is courage and determination.

And the first piece of courage is to actually ask yourself the question.

Imagine asking yourself that question, "Am I so sick that I might seek help to die?" Then when you've asked yourself that question, you have to raise it to the people who care for you most, your family, and you're quite right.

There are...

[laughs]

I know you like the occasional thing.

Where are you going to? That sounded like the theme for Mahogany, Maynard.

You just can't resist.

You're bringing out another album.

What's all about, Alfie? Yeah, 16 great hits and one real loser.

One of my favourites.

I have an enormous collection of 70s music and I don't know where it came from.

I'm

I know you like the occasional thing.

Where are you going to? That sounded like the theme for Mahogany, Maynard.

You just can't resist.

You're bringing out another album.

What's all about, Alfie? Yeah, 16 great hits and one real loser.

One of my favourites.

I have an enormous collection of 70s music and I don't know where it came from.

I'm

Why do you think that is?

Well, there's a number of reasons.

Uh, first of all, the law itself, uh, the process is not meant to be easy to get through.

It's meant to be careful and deliberative, and that's as it should be, and not everyone chooses to proceed.

It's a choice, and some people choose palliative care.

Some people feel just having that control was sufficient for them, so they don't choose to proceed.

Um, but there's also the other factors, as I was mentioning before, hostility and obfuscation from doctors when asked.

Andrew, you've been campaigning for this for so long now, and you've achieved so much, but what is really the ultimate goal? And where do you want Australia to be on this issue over the next five to 10 years?